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Dreamland Margate: General Discussion

Well earned retirement?
End of its working life?
Fifteen million quid spent on improvements and repairs to the park ten whole years ago?
And they still can't run an old woodie.

Oh wasn't that money well spent.

Still, I'm sure the developers and "ideas experts" took their fine slice of that.
 
It didn't help that the ride decided to tear itself apart a few years back.

That would've immediately caused £ signs to appear in front of the insurance agents.

It's a shame that the vintage theme park ideal never took off. Possibly wrong time for it given how desperately the nostalgia button is pressed these days. But clearly there's more money for them to have it as an event space over rides.

Also likely that its one of those situations where it being grade listed is detrimental to fixing the potential issues. No modernisation allowed to let it continue running.
 
This closure all feels very cynical.

Firstly, the amount of time, effort and money that so many people devoted to trying to save the park feels like it’s all been thrown down the toilet. Let’s face it, without the Scenic Railway there’s very little else of note at Dreamland, and it’s clearly the basis for there being so much enthusiasm for the Save Dreamland campaign.

Secondly, the “reimagining” of the ride is just spin. I’ve got no confidence that it will become anything more than a faded symbol of said cynicism.

It does make you wonder what structure has allowed so much effort by so many to specifically save such a significant piece of attraction history, to be handed over to operators who’ve now thrown all that effort away with seemingly no accountability.
 
Quantum said:
I'm not sure in the current economic climate putting all your eggs in the live Music basket is a good idea.
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It’s certainly a much stronger idea than running a seaside amusement park. I know where I’d put my money.

The initial attempts to market and operate Dreamland as a ‘vintage’ amusement park were well-meaning and well-executed, but unsustainable. Meanwhile, the music events sector at the park has gone from strength-to-strength.

As a coaster enthusiast, I agree that it’s a shame to see a piece of history become merely the background for a selfies while people wait through the support acts for a mid-tier festival headliner, but it has undoubtedly become an albatross.
 
Quantum said:
I'm not sure in the current economic climate putting all your eggs in the live Music basket is a good idea.
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For opening meet last year, I stopped over at a pub in Derby and asked them for future reference if the pub was for home fans only when Derby County were playing at home (it was). Got chatting to one of the barmen and I asked that they must have made a lot of money from the football, and he answered they actually made more from hosting gigs so there must be a good economic climate for it

I never rode Scenic and unless something changes that's another (in)famous coaster in the UK I've missed out after The Ultimate
 
Ted said:
For opening meet last year, I stopped over at a pub in Derby and asked them for future reference if the pub was for home fans only when Derby County were playing at home (it was). Got chatting to one of the barmen and I asked that they must have made a lot of money from the football, and he answered they actually made more from hosting gigs so there must be a good economic climate for it

I never rode Scenic and unless something changes that's another (in)famous coaster in the UK I've missed out after The Ultimate
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To be fair, it was Derby's first year back in the Championship last season and they finished 19th, so they probably didn't have a lot to celebrate.
 
Although there's no online article yet, BBC Radio 6 Music has featured the council's campaign to Culture Secretary Lisa Nandy to save the Scenic Railway on every one of its national news bulletins this morning.

I'm aware that any reversal of decision is unlikely to happen, but it's at least positive to see that some people are at least aware of the heritage that's been lost.

Edit: There's now an article!
www.bbc.co.uk

Urgent appeal to save Margate's Scenic Railway from closing

A council writes to the culture secretary to intervene to save Britain's oldest rollercoaster.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
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I do not trust the current owners Live Nation one little bit. I think there are some questions to answer like if there was money set aside for the ride to operate to 2037 what has happened to that money, also it was refurbished not too long ago.

It just doesn't add up hoping they make an adjustment to the Grade II listed status where the ride has to remain in place but also operational
 
Hid said:
I do not trust the current owners Live Nation one little bit. I think there are some questions to answer like if there was money set aside for the ride to operate to 2037 what has happened to that money, also it was refurbished not too long ago.

It just doesn't add up hoping they make an adjustment to the Grade II listed status where the ride has to remain in place but also operational
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I feel the need to inject a dose of reality into this particular conspiracy theory before it runs away with itself.

There was never a pot of cash "set aside" to pay for the ride's daily operations until 2037. That is not how Heritage Lottery Fund grants work. The money was a capital grant provided to fund the restoration of the structure. Once that money is spent on timber, drag brakes, and cable, it is gone. The ongoing operational costs, staff, insurance, electricity, grease, have to be met by the business revenue. If the ride doesn't make money, there isn't a secret bank account in Margate waiting to bail it out.

You are also fundamentally misunderstanding what Listed Status actually does.

The Scenic Railway is Grade II* listed (that little star is important). This status protects the fabric of the structure. It prevents the owners from demolishing it, burning it down, or replacing the track with steel without permission.

It does not protect the function.

You cannot use planning law or heritage status to legally force a private company to operate a ride, just as you cannot use Grade I listing to force the King to sleep at Buckingham Palace. They are legally obliged to maintain the structure so it doesn't rot (preventing demolition by neglect), but if they want to leave it standing there as a static museum piece because it costs too much to run, they are perfectly within their legal rights to do so.

Before anyone rushes to copy and paste the Dreamland Heritage Trust's statement as "proof" of a secret bank account, we need to parse the specific language of heritage grant funding very carefully.

When the Trust states that the funding was "explicitly intended to support the Scenic Railway’s ongoing operation for a period lasting until 2037", they are referring to CapEx, not OpEx.

The lottery grants paid for the timber, the steel, the cable lift, and the labour required to restore the physical structure to a condition where it could operate for another 20 years. That is the suppor". They fixed the asset so it wouldn't fall down.

They did not write a cheque to cover the brakeman's wages, the electricity bill, the insurance premiums, or the daily maintenance costs for the next two decades. Those are operational costs that must be covered by the business actually making money.

The 2037 date likely refers to the covenant period of the grant, the timeframe during which the asset must remain in use to avoid the Heritage Lottery Fund asking for their money back (clawback).

The Trust is arguing that the restoration work was of sufficient quality to last until 2037, and therefore the ride shouldn't be retiring due to condition. They are not saying there is a pot of gold sitting in a vault in Margate earmarked for staff wages.

Live Nation has likely done the maths and decided that the cost of running the ride (and the losses it incurs annually) outweighs the potential cost of fighting the Heritage Fund over a grant clawback. It is a cold commercial decision, not a conspiracy of missing funds.
Press Release 27th January 2026

Statement from The Dreamland Heritage Trust on the Retirement of the Scenic Railway

It is with great sadness that The Dreamland Heritage Trust notes the decision by Dreamland’s operator Sands Heritage Ltd, now majority-owned by Live Nation Entertainment, to retire the Scenic Railway from operation as a ride.

Dreamland Heritage Trust, formerly The Dreamland Trust, was established following the Save Dreamland Campaign and played a central role in negotiating and securing major capital funding for the full restoration, continued repair, and operation of the Scenic Railway. This funding included grants from the National Lottery Heritage Fund, Sea Change, and the Coastal Communities Fund, and was explicitly intended to support the Scenic Railway’s ongoing operation for a period lasting until 2037.

Whilst we recognise the technical complexities and economic challenges associated with maintaining and operating such a unique and historic attraction. However, it was our understanding, and the basis on which this funding was secured, that the resources provided were sufficient to ensure the continued existence and operation of the Scenic Railway throughout this agreed period.
The Dreamland Heritage Trust (DHT) is therefore particularly disappointed that, despite repeated attempts to engage, the current owners of Dreamland, did not involve the DHT in discussions regarding the future of the Scenic Railway. As the oldest roller coaster in the UK and one of only a small number of wooden roller coasters remaining worldwide, the Scenic Railway holds heritage significance of national and international importance. This status is formally recognised through its Grade II* listing, denoting a structure of exceptional historic interest.

DHT remains committed to promoting and safeguarding the unique heritage of Dreamland. Through our extensive archive and ongoing work, we will continue to share the story and significance of the Scenic Railway and Dreamland Park with the public.
In this context, we welcome Sands Heritage/Live Nation's announcement of a pop-up exhibition celebrating the history of the Scenic Railway and note positively their stated intention to host a public engagement event inviting ideas for its future. Meaningful consultation will be essential in shaping any long-term vision for this landmark structure.

Given the Scenic Railway’s prominent position within Dreamland, we hope these commitments will ensure it retains a central and active role within the park, avoiding the fate of other historic Dreamland buildings, such as the former cinema. Which is currently closed to the public, and the Buffet Building, which continues to deteriorate and instead allowing the Scenic Railway to remain a visible and valued part of Dreamland’s living heritage.

The Dreamland Heritage Trust stands ready to contribute constructively to discussions about the Scenic Railway’s future and reiterates its commitment to ensuring that this irreplaceable icon is preserved, respected, and meaningfully enjoyed by future generations.
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GooseOnTheLoose said:
I feel the need to inject a dose of reality into this particular conspiracy theory before it runs away with itself.

There was never a pot of cash "set aside" to pay for the ride's daily operations until 2037. That is not how Heritage Lottery Fund grants work. The money was a capital grant provided to fund the restoration of the structure. Once that money is spent on timber, drag brakes, and cable, it is gone. The ongoing operational costs, staff, insurance, electricity, grease, have to be met by the business revenue. If the ride doesn't make money, there isn't a secret bank account in Margate waiting to bail it out.

You are also fundamentally misunderstanding what Listed Status actually does.

The Scenic Railway is Grade II* listed (that little star is important). This status protects the fabric of the structure. It prevents the owners from demolishing it, burning it down, or replacing the track with steel without permission.

It does not protect the function.

You cannot use planning law or heritage status to legally force a private company to operate a ride, just as you cannot use Grade I listing to force the King to sleep at Buckingham Palace. They are legally obliged to maintain the structure so it doesn't rot (preventing demolition by neglect), but if they want to leave it standing there as a static museum piece because it costs too much to run, they are perfectly within their legal rights to do so.

Before anyone rushes to copy and paste the Dreamland Heritage Trust's statement as "proof" of a secret bank account, we need to parse the specific language of heritage grant funding very carefully.

When the Trust states that the funding was "explicitly intended to support the Scenic Railway’s ongoing operation for a period lasting until 2037", they are referring to CapEx, not OpEx.

The lottery grants paid for the timber, the steel, the cable lift, and the labour required to restore the physical structure to a condition where it could operate for another 20 years. That is the suppor". They fixed the asset so it wouldn't fall down.

They did not write a cheque to cover the brakeman's wages, the electricity bill, the insurance premiums, or the daily maintenance costs for the next two decades. Those are operational costs that must be covered by the business actually making money.

The 2037 date likely refers to the covenant period of the grant, the timeframe during which the asset must remain in use to avoid the Heritage Lottery Fund asking for their money back (clawback).

The Trust is arguing that the restoration work was of sufficient quality to last until 2037, and therefore the ride shouldn't be retiring due to condition. They are not saying there is a pot of gold sitting in a vault in Margate earmarked for staff wages.

Live Nation has likely done the maths and decided that the cost of running the ride (and the losses it incurs annually) outweighs the potential cost of fighting the Heritage Fund over a grant clawback. It is a cold commercial decision, not a conspiracy of missing funds.
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Live Nation are an incredibly corrupt organisation anyway and had no right to close such an old historic coaster.

That is why the listed status needs to be amended to make sure it can force the operation upon the owners
 
Hid said:
Live Nation are an incredibly corrupt organisation anyway and had no right to close such an old historic coaster.

That is why the listed status needs to be amended to make sure it can force the operation upon the owners
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On what basis do they have no right? As you say the listed status does not force operation.

What makes them corrupt?
 
GooseOnTheLoose said:
Live Nation has likely done the maths and decided that the cost of running the ride (and the losses it incurs annually) outweighs the potential cost of fighting the Heritage Fund over a grant clawback. It is a cold commercial decision, not a conspiracy of missing funds.
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Local here who was involved in the original 'Save Dreamland Campaign'

What's happened here is that during 2024, with the Scenic being out of operation, Dreamland (LN) saw no effect on their profits, due to the massive number of outdoor live music events that it held during the summer.

These events, are a pain in the **** for Margate residents - noise, public urination, fights, police presence. They are licenced and tolerated to support the operation of Dreamland as an amusement park and tourist destination and this includes the operation of the Scenic Railway, which Margate has already fought hard to save once.

I say this as a local resident who has been to many of these events and welcome them generally.

Quite simply, if the summer events are only making LN money (along with a few bars on the seafront, and some airbnb owners), then they are of no real value to the town and will be resisted. This should be the councils position - if you want the licences for your lucrative events, you must divert some of your profits to keep the Scenic running.
 
jon81uk said:
On what basis do they have no right? As you say the listed status does not force operation.
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You are correct, even a II* listing does not force any function.
LN do not hold all of the cards though - they need these event licences!

I honestly believe they didn't think the backlash would be this big and this decision will be reversed. It's all about the £££.
 
Stuie said:
Quite simply, if the summer events are only making LN money (along with a few bars on the seafront, and some airbnb owners), then they are of no real value to the town and will be resisted. This should be the councils position - if you want the licences for your lucrative events, you must divert some of your profits to keep the Scenic running.
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I agree the council could use the event licensing to force them to operate as an amusement park too, but there is a strong chance of Live Nation just selling up and making it someone elses problem. The council will also be concerned about hotel and other secondary spend of people travelling to the town for the concerts, which may well be significantly higher than the number of people coming for an old and not particularly exciting to ride wooden rollercoaster.
I bet the concerts cause a lot more hotel bookings and other spend than the rollercoaster would.
 
Hid said:
and had no right to close such an old historic coaster.
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They literally have the right to close the coaster.
Hid said:
That is why the listed status needs to be amended to make sure it can force the operation upon the owners
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As I explained, this isn't a thing.
GooseOnTheLoose said:
You cannot use planning law or heritage status to legally force a private company to operate a ride, just as you cannot use Grade I listing to force the King to sleep at Buckingham Palace. They are legally obliged to maintain the structure so it doesn't rot (preventing demolition by neglect), but if they want to leave it standing there as a static museum piece because it costs too much to run, they are perfectly within their legal rights to do so.
Click to expand...
 
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