• ℹ️ Heads up...

    This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.

Duel: The Haunted House Actually Strikes Back - Refurb Incoming

Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
I never knew the zombie was an interactive experience with guests after all these years unless it is more recent or something that it has been in place and they've only started to play around with it.

Actually, if they are to replace the zombie at the front, you could have an interactive experience for guests like with the talking fountain at IOA, only with a GW theme which has potential to add a bit more to the area and guests like a funny interactive experience. Who knows, if this is just new them maybe what Shaun experienced there could be like a taste things to come for the outside area?
 
QTXAdsy said:
I never knew the zombie was an interactive experience with guests after all these years unless it is more recent or something that it has been in place and they've only started to play around with it.

Actually, if they are to replace the zombie at the front, you could have an interactive experience for guests like with the talking fountain at IOA, only with a GW theme which has potential to add a bit more to the area and guests like a funny interactive experience. Who knows, if this is just new them maybe what Shaun experienced there could be like a taste things to come for the outside area?
Click to expand...
I assume its probably been there since 92, just to tell guests outside the ride that the ride has either broken down, or is having a delay, so it'd save them a lot of time Queueing for no reason.
 
Jb85 said:
Whilst there clearly is... nobody would complain if he did though would they?

In fairness my comment was a bit tongue in cheek and meant in good spirit
Click to expand...
Exactly. Nothing wrong with a little excitement in this Thread.

Anyway, who else would you trust to modify Duel than the Original Designer? It's like asking a random Burger Place to try and remake a Burger from Burger King. It looks kinda like one and tastes fine, but it still doesn't hold a candle to the original. It's missing that detailed taste only a Whopper Has.
 
While I’ll admit that I’m sure John Wardley would do a very good job if he was put in charge, I agree with others in the thread who think that he is far from the only person who could do a good job. Even he himself seems to think this based on past interviews he’s done!

I’m not sure the person doing it matters nearly as much as other factors, such as budget and creativity constraints.

There are many brilliant minds within Merlin Magic Making who are incredibly talented. As much as some in this thread seemingly love to hate him, I’m sure John Burton, Merlin’s current creative lead for Resort Theme Parks, could produce a pretty exemplary attraction if you gave him the right amount of budget and creative control. He’s very talented, as are many others within Merlin Magic Making.

Whereas I’m sure even John Wardley would struggle if he was only given a pittance in budget and very limited creative control.

I’m not denying that Wardley is very talented and has influenced the UK theme park industry massively, but I don’t think he necessarily needs to be involved for this to be a cracking attraction. Likewise, I’m not sure that his involvement would necessarily be a silver bullet.

But even if he does have a unique touch compared to other designers; he’s 72 years of age. He retired from Merlin of his own volition close to 10 years ago. I’d argue that he’s entitled to a quiet retirement at this point.

Yes, I know he was briefly involved with Wicker Man, but he always said that a Towers woodie would be the one thing he’d come back for.
 
Matt N said:
While I’ll admit that I’m sure John Wardley would do a very good job if he was put in charge, I agree with others in the thread who think that he is far from the only person who could do a good job. Even he himself seems to think this based on past interviews he’s done!

I’m not sure the person doing it matters nearly as much as other factors, such as budget and creativity constraints.

There are many brilliant minds within Merlin Magic Making who are incredibly talented. As much as some in this thread seemingly love to hate him, I’m sure John Burton, Merlin’s current creative lead for Resort Theme Parks, could produce a pretty exemplary attraction if you gave him the right amount of budget and creative control. He’s very talented, as are many others within Merlin Magic Making.

Whereas I’m sure even John Wardley would struggle if he was only given a pittance in budget and very limited creative control.

I’m not denying that Wardley is very talented and has influenced the UK theme park industry massively, but I don’t think he necessarily needs to be involved for this to be a cracking attraction.

Even if he did have a unique touch compared to other designers; he’s 72 years of age. He retired from Merlin of his own volition close to 10 years ago. I’d argue that he’s entitled to a quiet retirement at this point.

Yes, I know he was briefly involved with Wicker Man, but he always said that a Towers woodie would be the one thing he’d come back for.
Click to expand...
Im very aware that there are a lot of creative people in MMM, but they just never try to replicate that Alton Towers feel many guests are familiar with, especially from 1992-2002.

Trust me, I don't want John to be unwillingly in the ride industry actively. The only time I'd like to see him is with his existing attractions if they were to be altered, let him take control of the project. Outside of that, I just wish that more creatives take heavy inspiration from him and the Parks Golden era to try and bring that style and feel back, but in a more modern manner. The closest we got IMO from Merlin to have a Tussauds era or proper Towers like Product was CCL when it first opened. It had a great score, vibrant colours, a very Quirky style, and was very creative and charming. Such a shame the area was left to rot until its downgrade as TWODW when compared to it back in 2009.


So, the MMM team are very creative, right? Let's have a look at Galactica:

Doesn't make any sense with the Areas theme?
Check!

Generic Space Sci Fi theming?
Check!

Short lived VR gimmick that was only implemented for quick cash?
Check!

Feels out of place?
Check!!!

Not unique in any manner?
Check! You get what I mean.


Wicker Man is also a bit of a victim to this as well. The actual ride and effects fantastic, gotta give props to that, but it's theme is the same with Galactica, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE when between Katanga Canyon and Mutiny Bay. It could've been about a burning Ghost Ship or something.

All I'm asking from MMM is a ride or area that feels original, charming in a British and non commercial manner with inspiration from the Tussauds era with new and unique ideas.

Anyway, Duel is, IMO, best left alone with those who originally Designed it, but bring a good chunk of Merlin Magic Making, and et the OGs inspire them and show them how it's done right in a proper Alton Towers Manner.
 
Last edited:
Trooper Looper said:
Im very aware that there are a lot of creative people in MMM, but they just never try to replicate that Alton Towers feel many guests are familiar with, especially from 1992-2002.

Trust me, I don't want John to be unwillingly in the ride industry actively. The only time I'd like to see him is with his existing attractions if they were to be altered, let him take control of the project. Outside of that, I just wish that more creatives take heavy inspiration from him and the Parks Golden era to try and bring that style and feel back, but in a more modern manner. The closest we got IMO from Merlin to have a Tussauds era or proper Towers like Product was CCL when it first opened. It had a great score, vibrant colours, a very Quirky style, and was very creative and charming. Such a shame the area was left to rot until its downgrade as TWODW when compared to it back in 2009.


So, the MMM team are very creative, right? Let's have a look at Galactica:

Doesn't make any sense with the Areas theme?
Check!

Generic Space Sci Fi theming?
Check!

Short lived VR gimmick that was only implemented for quick cash?
Check!

Feels out of place?
Check!!!

Not unique in any manner?
Check! You get what I mean.


Wicker Man is also a bit of a victim to this as well. The actual ride and effects fantastic, gotta give props to that, but it's theme is the same with Galactica, IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE when between Katanga Canyon and Mutiny Bay. It could've been about a burning Ghost Ship or something.

All I'm asking from MMM is a ride or area that feels original, charming in a British and non commercial manner with inspiration from the Tussauds era with new and unique ideas.

Anyway, Duel is, IMO, best left alone with those who originally Designed it, but bring a good chunk of Merlin Magic Making, and et the OGs inspire them and show them how it's done right in a proper Alton Towers Manner.
Click to expand...
The thing is, though, the world is a very different place to how it was in the supposed “golden era”. As is the park. What worked in 1992 might not necessarily work now; things advance. Beliefs change. The demands of the contemporary guest change.

Let me also justify why I said that MMM were very creative.

Yes, Galactica as an overall project, although it had good elements, was done with good intentions, and I do feel that it was an overall improvement on Air, was perhaps not their finest hour. I’ll give you that one.

However, I personally feel that many of their attractions, while at times debatable in execution, show some truly remarkable creativity and exhibit some genuinely daring and innovative ideas. In terms of some examples of where I feel this is the case:
  • Nemesis Sub-Terra: Yes, it wasn’t the most loved attraction, but I’ve heard many praise the base concept, and I have to say I concur with that praise. Building upon the original Nemesis legend was a brilliant idea, and I have to say that I think the idea of doing a horror dark ride of that style was a rather daring one. There still isn’t really anything like it in the world, and the horror dark ride remains quite an untapped genre, so even if the quality of the execution here was up for debate, I think it took some serious creativity and outside-the-box thinking to come up with this concept and give it a try.
  • The Smiler: When Merlin built this coaster, they could have just gone for another ambiguous half-theme like Tussauds did with Oblivion. But instead, they came up with something incredibly compelling and original. I can’t imagine what twisted mind came up with that theme. They created arguably one of the creepiest roller coaster themes ever done, and they literally wound a 14 inversion roller coaster around a giant 5-legged metal spider with syringes, car wash rollers, optical illusions, flashing lights and all sorts of other stuff fixed onto it. You can say what you want about the execution, as I know it’s divisive, but I’ve got to say that I personally think that the theme as a concept is absolutely insane, brilliantly unhinged, and certainly very original!
  • Derren Brown’s Ghost Train: Yes, this attraction arguably flopped big time in the eyes of many. But I personally feel that it was a very, very bold attraction in many ways, and exhibited many innovative and brilliant ideas, even if they apparently didn’t quite coexist in harmony or work perfectly in reality. For starters, you literally have a giant Victorian train carriage suspended by chains at the very centre of the ride. You have this carriage change into a London Underground carriage when you got in. This carriage then moves around the building, while giving off the illusion that you never moved at all and couldn’t possibly have moved when you got off. While I won’t deny that many dislike this ride due to how it was executed, and I’ll confess that the actor-led execution does not appeal to me at all, I personally feel that building a ride like it was seriously creative and must have taken phenomenal balls to commission. I think it has many elements that are true strokes of brilliance when viewed in isolation, and one thing you can say about DBGT is that it is well and truly unique; nothing else even vaguely like it exists!
  • Wicker Man: There are all manner of cliched themes that could have been chosen for Wicker Man. They could have gone with a Western theme like many wooden coasters have opted for over the years, or they could have gone with a pirate theme. Most wooden coasters, aside from a few exceptions, don’t go further than some mild styling and a presentable station building. But Merlin didn’t settle for that. They didn’t even settle at a pirate themed station building or whatever. They literally themed the ride to a Pagan cult ritual involving human sacrifice, which I’d argue is about as original of a theme as you can get, built an immersive pre-show with an incredibly cool trick involved, and wound the entire layout around a 60ft wicker statue that breathes fire. How cool is that? You can say what you want about it not fitting in with Mutiny Bay, but the innovative, original theme they explored with Wicker Man certainly seems to have gone down pretty well.
Also, to play devil’s advocate a tad; weren’t Tussauds guilty of similar things to what you accuse Merlin of at times too?

I won’t deny that they did some brilliant, well received work during their tenure. But Tussauds were hardly infallible. Rita? Spinball Whizzer? Air? Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? Imperial Leather Bubbleworks? Duel? Nickelodeon Outta Control? Based on some reviews I’ve heard, I could probably throw in Cred Street in general? All of these are widely seen to have committed similar crimes to what you accuse Merlin of doing in their ride design, but none of them had a lick of Merlin involvement in their design.

I apologise if I’m wrong in anything I say, or if I come across overly confrontational (that’s not my intent). But I do feel that from what I know, the commonly presented narrative of “Tussauds good, Merlin bad” is far from the truth, and it’s a lot more nuanced than that in reality.
 
Matt N said:
The thing is, though, the world is a very different place to how it was in the supposed “golden era”. As is the park. What worked in 1992 might not necessarily work now; things advance. Beliefs change. The demands of the contemporary guest change.

Let me also justify why I said that MMM were very creative.

Yes, Galactica as an overall project, although it had good elements, was done with good intentions, and I do feel that it was an overall improvement on Air, was perhaps not their finest hour. I’ll give you that one.

However, I personally feel that many of their attractions, while at times debatable in execution, show some truly remarkable creativity and exhibit some genuinely daring and innovative ideas. In terms of some examples of where I feel this is the case:
  • Nemesis Sub-Terra: Yes, it wasn’t the most loved attraction, but I’ve heard many praise the base concept, and I have to say I concur with that praise. Building upon the original Nemesis legend was a brilliant idea, and I have to say that I think the idea of doing a horror dark ride of that style was a rather daring one. There still isn’t really anything like it in the world, and the horror dark ride remains quite an untapped genre, so even if the quality of the execution here was up for debate, I think it took some serious creativity and outside-the-box thinking to come up with this concept and give it a try.
  • The Smiler: When Merlin built this coaster, they could have just gone for another ambiguous half-theme like Tussauds did with Oblivion. But instead, they came up with something incredibly compelling and original. I can’t imagine what twisted mind came up with that theme. They created arguably one of the creepiest roller coaster themes ever done, and they literally wound a 14 inversion roller coaster around a giant 5-legged metal spider with syringes, car wash rollers, optical illusions, flashing lights and all sorts of other stuff fixed onto it. You can say what you want about the execution, as I know it’s divisive, but I’ve got to say that I personally think that the theme as a concept is absolutely insane, brilliantly unhinged, and certainly very original!
  • Derren Brown’s Ghost Train: Yes, this attraction arguably flopped big time in the eyes of many. But I personally feel that it was a very, very bold attraction in many ways, and exhibited many innovative and brilliant ideas, even if they apparently didn’t quite coexist in harmony or work perfectly in reality. For starters, you literally have a giant Victorian train carriage suspended by chains at the very centre of the ride. You have this carriage change into a London Underground carriage when you got in. This carriage then moves around the building, while giving off the illusion that you never moved at all and couldn’t possibly have moved when you got off. While I won’t deny that many dislike this ride due to how it was executed, and I’ll confess that the actor-led execution does not appeal to me at all, I personally feel that building a ride like it was seriously creative and must have taken phenomenal balls to commission. I think it has many elements that are true strokes of brilliance when viewed in isolation, and one thing you can say about DBGT is that it is well and truly unique; nothing else even vaguely like it exists!
  • Wicker Man: There are all manner of cliched themes that could have been chosen for Wicker Man. They could have gone with a Western theme like many wooden coasters have opted for over the years, or they could have gone with a pirate theme. Most wooden coasters, aside from a few exceptions, don’t go further than some mild styling and a presentable station building. But Merlin didn’t settle for that. They didn’t even settle at a pirate themed station building or whatever. They literally themed the ride to a Pagan cult ritual involving human sacrifice, which I’d argue is about as original of a theme as you can get, built an immersive pre-show with an incredibly cool trick involved, and wound the entire layout around a 60ft wicker statue that breathes fire. How cool is that? You can say what you want about it not fitting in with Mutiny Bay, but the innovative, original theme they explored with Wicker Man certainly seems to have gone down pretty well.
Also, to play devil’s advocate a tad; weren’t Tussauds guilty of similar things to what you accuse Merlin of at times too?

I won’t deny that they did some brilliant, well received work during their tenure. But Tussauds were hardly infallible. Rita? Spinball Whizzer? Air? Charlie and the Chocolate Factory? Imperial Leather Bubbleworks? Duel? Nickelodeon Outta Control? Based on some reviews I’ve heard, I could probably throw in Cred Street in general? All of these are widely seen to have committed similar crimes to what you accuse Merlin of doing in their ride design, but none of them had a lick of Merlin involvement in their design.

I apologise if I’m wrong in anything I say, or if I come across overly confrontational (that’s not my intent). But I do feel that from what I know, the commonly presented narrative of “Tussauds good, Merlin bad” is far from the truth, and it’s a lot more nuanced than that in reality.
Click to expand...
Many of the Parks attractions from that era are still very well received, so I doubt that Guests have changed significantly since 92.

Air at first glance and compared to Galactica will probably look like a downgrade to many, but the more you look into it, the more you appreciate what Air tried to create. Air was the good, untouched side of Nemmys rein in Forbidden Valley. Air was the hero, and Nemmy was the Villain. The reason why Air lacked a lot of themibg was because of a lot of Budget Constraints the project was given, as Tussauds at the time was being sold to a different company, so getting Money from Pearsons was a difficult task. If you look at Airs concept art, you start to understand what they were trying to achieve. IMO is made perfect sense in Forbidden Valley. Many guests would just expect the next SW in FV just to ne another Post Apocalyptic Themed Roller Coaster, but John put a twist to the rides tone and theme, whilst making sense still to be in Forbidden Valley.

On NST, I can't blame you there. Merlin from 2008-2013 managed to keep the Tussauds tone for the park perfectly, NST is a (positive) victim of that. The ride had that cheesy but charming 90s sci fi feel to it, but still had some modern elements to it. If only some more theming outside of the ride area was implemented, or the drops were a little taller. Outside of those problems though, NST feels like Tussauds would've made. The people behind it really wanted to encapsulate that Feeling of Nemesis' dread and feel, and they pretty close to perfecting it. With a few tweaks, it would’ve been fantastic!

Now onto the Smiler. The reason it fits so well in X-Sector is because it was designed and themed by the same guy who designed and themed Oblivion, John Wardley. It was his last project before retirement, and it still feels like something Tussauds would've made. Both rides share a similar tone, and theme. The only thing Merlin was probably doing with the Smiler was its budget, engineers, and probably just a handful of MMM creatives. Everything else, though, all by the magnificent mind of John Wardley himself.

Derren Brown's Ghost Train. Could've worked really well if it wasn't for the obvious popular figure just to draw crowds in as a marketing scheme (Derren Brown), and the cheap budget cut of using VR. Great concept on paper, not the best execution unfortunately. It had a lot of potential. At least its theme and style do decently fit in Thorpe Park in an ok manner.

You're absolutely on the take Merlin did with Wicker Man. It was unique, well done, and impressive. But I still hate where its located. Its just like Galactica, it's location and Theming in the area don't make any sense!!

Tussauds weren't in their best position after 2002. Outside of Air, Spinball, and Rita when it opened, I agree with you there. But they had little choice then. Their Budget was almost nonexistent, so they had to make some questionable decisions. They still had that creative and passion though, outside, but their Budgey really controlled how much of that creativity could come to fruition, which was practical none. So they had to make these decisions since they were on their last legs. Yes, we hated what they did to Bubbleworks, The Haunted House, Toyland Tours, but they had little choice. It was either radical decisions that might save the company, or go bankrupt. I'm sure we discussed this somewhere else, but Merlin are in a really fantastic position, but are just as bad, or worse in some cases than Tussauds was on its last years. Ever since The Smiler, They've changed Altons Towers feel a lot, and outside of WM, haven't done anything remotely like Tussauds style but modern attractions like NST, CLL, Th13teen, and the Smiler.

Can we go back onto the Duel Topic Now please?
 
Last edited:
On the “John” debate, I highly suspect the suits knew that John (Burton) was involved, thought oh let’s give John (Wardley) a call to see how the project is going, and only at that point did they click that the John (Burton) working on Wickerman is a different John

John Burton incidentally is more than capable, his work on attractions has been evidently extremely thought out - if constrained by budget.
 
Easy way to solve the debate and decide who can redesign Duel.

I think we host a 'John Off' on Airs car park (can't call it Galactica whilst JW is around)

We host a fight to to the death between the two John's in a winner takes all battle.

Seems fair to me. The loosing John is reimagined as a ghost in the revamped Duel, designed by winning John.

Easy.
 
Trooper Looper said:
Tussauds weren't in their best position after 2002. Outside of Air, Spinball, and Rita when it opened, I agree with you there. But they had little choice then. Their Budget was almost nonexistent, so they had to make some questionable decisions. They still had that creative and passion though, outside, but their Budgey really controlled how much of that creativity could come to fruition, which was practical none. So they had to make these decisions since they were on their last legs. Yes, we hated what they did to Bubbleworks, The Haunted House, Toyland Tours, but they had little choice. It was either radical decisions that might save the company, or go bankrupt. I'm sure we discussed this somewhere else, but Merlin are in a really fantastic position, but are just as bad, or worse in some cases than Tussauds was on its last years. Ever since The Smiler, They've changed Altons Towers feel a lot, and outside of WM, haven't done anything remotely like Tussauds style but modern attractions like NST, CLL, Th13teen, and the Smiler.

Can we go back onto the Duel Topic Now please?
Click to expand...
I feel like I’ve said this before, but Merlin have had an arguably greater financial hardship to deal with than Tussauds did… the Smiler crash and the ensuing impact. Yes, the company at large only suffered a minor effect from it, but within the Resort Theme Parks division… profits fell to £40m from £87m in 2014, and didn’t recover to that level until 2019 or so (if they ever did recover to that level). Alton Towers’ figures fell by 25%, and did not recover to their pre-crash figure until 2019. Thorpe Park’s figures fell by 12%, and are yet to recover to their pre-crash figure; numbers have continued to fall since then. When a business experiences a shock like that, where 1 in 4 Alton Towers guests and 1 in 8 Thorpe Park guests do not return, it’s very difficult to get through that without making some sort of cuts. I think cuts to budgets and the like were almost inevitable after the crash, because having visited in 2015 just after the crash happened, I’d be stunned if Alton Towers wasn’t absolutely haemorrhaging money. Rides were deserted. Even during the summer holidays, there were arguably more staff than people. When money is that tight, throwing money at a place and hoping something good will come of it is a very risky strategy, because if it isn’t… it could lead to total failure for the business.

I don’t think any financial hardships Tussauds dealt with were on anywhere near that level (I could be wrong, but that’s how it appears to me). Even during the DIC era, guest figures kept to a fairly strong 2.5 million or so.

Also, I thought John Wardley only assisted with Smiler’s layout, and the actual theme was concocted by Candy Holland and the other Merlin creatives? Again, I could be wrong there… you likely know more than me on that topic.

But yes, we should probably get back on topic now. I wonder when (or even if) we might get an announcement about Duel?
 
jon81uk said:
Keith Sparks died in 2011 though.
Click to expand...
Yes, unfortunately. But the many of people that worked on the Haunted House are still alive and well I think. People such as Graham Owen, Donald Owen maybe (he made all the fiberglass props such as the 2 large Demons in the Grand hall, Column monster, Dragon Head, etc.) There's also Peter Evans Studios, they're still in buisness and helped with the details in the Drawing Room, such as the wallpaper, Decor on the Fireplace, and so on.

Rex Stuios are still around (kinda) when they're required that is. They did the UV painting on the ride, especially for the hall of Spider and Garden scene. Unfortunately most of it was removed shortly after opening, so it'd be nice for them to paint the Garden back into that magical feel.

Daniel, the son of Alan Harvey, helped with the Paint effects inside the actual attraction, and I believe Daniel is still alive. So he could help repaint the props to their original Look. He also helped with the decaying look of the Drawing Room by using emulsion paints, along with normal spray techniques they used in there. Daniel said he vividly remember doing the wall theming in the Station, The Grand Hall, Trommel, Giants Head, The Spider Scene, and the Garden. They also used Battery Powered Spray Guns, Ragging and Sponge work for a specific look they were aiming for.

They also reworked a few scenes, especially the Giants Lair, The Spider, and the Undertaker, with them being repainted with Tungsten paint to look more sinister.

John did a lot here too, he took pretty much full responsibility of the Rides Facade, which started as a Victorian looking house in the early concept art, but was slowly moulded into the iconic Facade were all Familiar with. He also made the rides storyboard and script. He also designed the Drawing Room, as he didn't want Guests to be bored when queuing.

Hope this helped you out.

Oh, and on Peter Evans Studios Website, they still have the exact Decor they used in the Fireplace avaliable, same for the books in the bookshelf in the Drawing Room I think:
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20220811-113645_Samsung Internet.jpg
    Screenshot_20220811-113645_Samsung Internet.jpg
    98.3 KB · Views: 17
  • Screenshot_20220811-114221_Samsung Internet.jpg
    Screenshot_20220811-114221_Samsung Internet.jpg
    129.6 KB · Views: 17
Last edited:
Status
This topic has been locked. No further replies can be posted.
Top