EU Referendum

[delta79]

EU will not let they cash cow leave. and wont give the UK more powers.

 

[kydog1299]

Now we have a confirmed date for the EU referendum in the UK, and now senior cabinet ministers have voiced their opinion & the way they intend to vote on June 23rd, I want to ask, are you still convinced that remaining in the EU is a good thing, or are you more convinced towards a Brexit?

Personally I am slightly undecided. Although I would like the £500m costs to be in the EU (daily costs) to be transferred to the NHS and other public sector services, I wouldn't want big-end businesses to suffer such as National Express and etc, who have publicly voiced price increases should the UK leave the EU, as I think this will cause a problem to UK citizens. I do think that the money from the EU should be ploughed into more beneficial services to the UK, such as the NHS and police force. I also believe controlling migration is an important factor and therefore I would like the government to address the clear migration issue currently facing us. Although my A-Level Politics teacher raised a good question earlier, in the sense that leaving the EU could cause a larger problem for us on the whole with migration. The 'Jungle' camp at Calais would likely to be moved to Dover or on British soils if we were to leave, creating economic problems for us having to deport them but also a social issue with a camp most likely needing to be erected on British soil. It's a dangerous game and something with arguments on both sides.

I find that the older generation seem to want to leave the EU more-so than the younger generation, quite surprising really. Although there is a great argument put forwards from Norway, suggesting that we can still make trading deals outside of the EU and thrive just like they currently are, how long this would take after we (possibly) leave the EU would be another story though, I imagine that it would take some time for economic growth following a Brexit.

I was very very surprised by Theresa May supporting the case to remain in the EU though, considering Migration is a huge issue with her and the Home Office, as well as the fact she's known to be a Euro Sceptic. She has constantly voiced her concerns over the Human Rights act too, and wants it 'abolished' to some extent. I believe she is in favour for hopes to take over the Conservative party as leader following David Cameron in 2020 or earlier, and therefore needs to be 'seen' to follow government cabinet policy and collective responsibility.

I would most likely be in favour of remaining in the EU if the reforms were stronger than what they currently are, although I am in favour of leaving on the argument of cost and migration issues.

Thoughts?

 

[Dar]

The migration issue raises an interesting point: what happens to the 1.2 million UK immigrants in European countries if the UK does vote to leave?

 

[kydog1299]

The migration issue raises an interesting point: what happens to the 1.2 million UK immigrants in European countries if the UK does vote to leave?

I presume they will be given a period of return, for example they would perhaps be given a year or so to return to the UK, then anyone remaining in those countries after a certain period would just be deemed as illegal. Would be very difficult to trace individuals though with no records of where any UK citizens are in Europe to some extent, so it'll be a huge challenge to deport/return any UK citizens from EU countries. Or perhaps the EU will be soft and allow UK citizens to remain in the countries where they are currently situated. It's a difficult aspect but the EU shouldn't expect British citizens to just up their lives abroad and return to the UK, especially if they have settled with families, jobs and etc. Although that could be used as a good argument to convince people to vote to remain within the EU. I'm unsure on the actual decision made regarding that if I am honest, I presume there must be one or one being made.

EDIT: The Guardian have published this regarding migration/freedom of movement should we leave.

There are nine countries within the EU that have British expat communities of 20,000 or more, all of whom would be dramatically affected by Brexit. More than one million Brits live in Spain alone. British secession from the EU would bring with it any number of consequences, some of them foreseen, others less so. For example, we’d need to apply for visas in order to take our holidays in France, says Denis MacShane, fill out endless forms for any European business we wished to do. “In Spain, every non-EU resident has to pass a driving test and file five years of tax returns.” He adds that another Scottish referendum could become a possibility, with Nicola Sturgeon already having made clear her position on Europe – that Scotland should remain an EU member whatever Britain decides to do. More recently, Fabian Picardo, chief minister of Gibraltar, has said that he would want a separate referendum on EU membership if Britain sought to leave.

Some 2 million UK citizens in EU countries would find themselves becoming illegal immigrants overnight.

Dominic Grieve, former attorney general
Then there’s the problem of the border between northern and southern Ireland. Relatively fluid and even continental under the current system, it would become a major international frontier, manned by border patrols and customs guards. The taoiseach is already setting up a special unit to investigate the situation. Currently, Britain exports more to Ireland than to China, India and Brazil combined, trade worth over €1bn a week. “We cannot afford the potential deep uncertainty that would inevitably result from a fundamental change in the EU-UK relationship, let alone the concrete difficulties which could arise,” says the Irish European minister, Dara Murphy.

Also states that if we choose to leave then any UK citizens currently living abroad in foreign countries inside the EU will be deemed 'illegal immigrants'. This also raises an important issue regarding holidays and holiday companies, I imagine airlines and travel agents will suffer a loss from Britons being lazy and not bothering to go on holiday due to the visa complications and hassle, unless the process is simplified.

 

[delta79]

At the moment all the EU vote campaigns are
Say scary stuff to scare us to vote to stay in.
Say scary stuff to scare us to vote to get out.

There is no really substance to the campaigns, no data on what could happen to the uk markets if we stay in or get out. It all seems to be,
If we don't leave Britain with be a country full of illegal immigrants.
If we leave the marketplace of Britain will fall and we be back in the Victorian times.

 

[bluesonichd]

If the vote goes and we end up staying in then Im leaving!

 

[Martin]

I think under any other government I'd probably vote leave, but anything that slows the Tory descent into hell is, if not good, then at least better.

This renegotiation thing is a farce, what makes us so special we should get different rules? Good old British misplaced sense of superiority. "WE HAD AN EMPIRE ONCE YOU KNOW!"

 

[bluesonichd]

"WE HAD AN EMPIRE ONCE YOU KNOW!"

We did ! God save the queen!

We don't need all these bureaucratic Belgium rules.
We don't need Europe
We can stand on our own
We are Great

 

[Dar]

We are Great

We were never great, we were an uppity little island that got ideas above its station!

 

[IanB]

Well I did not expect this sort of reaction on the forums, I was expecting it to be a lot more Pro-European.

As others have said, everything I have read (And liked on Facebook, Sorry everyone) seems to be both sides saying the opposite of each other. We are safer in, we are safer out. I think this is because no one knows what would happen if we leave. I think you can look at other countries and see what they have managed to agree, but we can not be certain that we will be able to come to the same agreements or what we will have to give in exchange to get those agreements.

If there was not a serious risk of us leaving Europe, I would be tempted to spoil my ballot paper, as I do not agree with the deal that has been reached. I do not want my vote to stay in Europe to be seen as my backing for the deal that has been reached. I do not agree with it this new deal and if anything, I would like to see us continue on a route to closer integration with Europe.

There are so many benefits to staying in Europe, and they can be found here: http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/

Ian

 

[bluesonichd]

and many reasons for leaving
http://getbritainout.org/

 

[Dar]

I think one problem with comparing the UK to countries such as Norway, is that the UK is already an integrated part of the EU, leaving would raise far more questions and problems than if we'd never been a part in the first place.

 

[delta79]

There are so many benefits to staying in Europe, and they can be found here: http://www.the-eu-and-me.org.uk/

I have just looked at EU near you, and it comes up with no info for my area.

 

[bluesonichd]

Yeah, the EU does nothing for us apart from take take take. the only thing it gives us is mass unsustainable migration

 

[TheMan]

Reasons to leave:

Go on, try and get rid of the European Commission.

Here's OUR trade minister...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html

She's in charge of Trade and Investment, for us all. Any ideas who she is?

You dislike the swines (chortle) in Westminster, you can probably find their house and stick a banner on it. Just like people who set up a foodbank (I think it was) outside Duncan Smith's gaff.

Who's in charge of that in the EU?! Anyone know?

1.2 million people are represented by 1 MEP, who are ultimately beholden to a non-elected European Commission.

Think, House of Lords running the UK, and Westminster being second.

We are a HUGE cog in the Europe machine, anyone with some proper balls (no, not hamface) could negotiate a good exit deal that suits both parties - it wouldn't be easy, no, and some states may get snotty - but that reflects what the EU is becoming.

It has many good points, but democracy isn't one of them. Those who want to stay in, to protect us from ourselves or the wretched Tories right now, good luck changing the EU if the balance of power changes, because we won't be able to do a fat lot about it.

 

[Harv]

It makes me laugh when people criticise the EU for being undemocratic. The European Parliament is the only truly democratic part of the whole European system but when it comes to electing our MEPs, only a third or so of Brits voted in 2014. Even if elections were introduced for every position in the EU, from council to commission, the Union would still fail to be truly democratic because only a minority care that much about who has power in the EU.

 

[TheMan]

It makes me laugh when people criticise the EU for being undemocratic. The European Parliament is the only truly democratic part of the whole European system but when it comes to electing our MEPs, only a third or so of Brits voted in 2014. Even if elections were introduced for every position in the EU, from council to commission, the Union would still fail to be truly democratic because only a minority care that much about who has power in the EU.

But whose fault is this?

Look how many voted UKIP as a protest. We were supposed to have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

There's one MEP per 1.2 million people, the Commission isn't elected and as far as I know can simply over rule the MEPs.

Where's the news coverage of the decisions being made? How are they accountable? How much say do YOU have, how easy can you get rid of them? Can you go and protest outside? Where's the media coverage of our MEPs, who they are etc?

People have become disenfranchised with power as a whole, or feel they don't make a difference - in whose interests exactly would you suggest that serves?

It isn't about having elections for every position.

It is about the elections ensuring that the very top table OF the EU is elected and their power is held accountable to the people.

It is a distant bureaucracy - and I've been lucky enough to find a friend who's been studying this for 12 years. They're a big campaigner in the LEAVE camp (the non-xenophobic etc one!).

Difference is, they don't talk about give power back to WESTMINSTER.

They want a stage further, and to take power down back into the hands of proper, local democracy.

I can't see how that's a bad thing in any way shape or form. It wont always yield the best results of course, no true democracy will, however, it WILL ensure it's more accountable and EASIER TO CHANGE.

Once every 5 years with the "elected" power in charge, to run roughshod over everyone and have carte blanche decision making, with no recourse, is just not right.

People need to wake the hell up.

Democracy was HARD FOUGHT FOR. It should not be taken for granted or treated with "meh".

 

[DiogoJ42]

I've been unable to make up my mind on this issue. There are good arguments in favour of both sides.

However, as someone who orders a lot of obscure things online, that come from all over the world, I try when possible to order from within the EU... so that I don't get stung with rip off customs charges like I just did today. So far, that's the best argument for staying in that I've found!

 

[BarryZola]

I'm voting out. We need to have more of a say on issues that seriously impact the people who live here, without having them dictated to us by people who have never lived here. It's just ridiculous. The amount of immigration into this country is unsustainable when you think about public services, job availability etc. I understand the risks of a negative impact on trade etc but sometimes you've just gotta take a leap of faith. Other people can vote how they like, and they will have their reasons, but I'm OUT.

 

[Dar]

I don't get the job availability claim, the jobs are there but the people here find themselves above the lower class work. I had a job in a factory for a short time and most of the other people working there were eastern european commuting from nearly half an hour away for a minimum wage job with the minimum legal breaks and nothing else. They were always looking for more staff. This was in a town with a relatively bad unemployment rate. Yet if you spoke to anyone in town about getting a job in the factory, they turned their nose up it. I only lasted 3 months because I couldn't hack the shifts, but I was working with people that had been working the same shifts for 5 years. No complaints, no grumbles, they just got on with it and were grateful for the money.

This is doubly true in the NHS. How many migrants are working in our hospitals because the pay is awful, the hours worse, and the general treatment from the government is abysmal.

None of that's including the hypocrisy of this particular poll