Existential Crisis? Towers and it's future

[Matt N]

Sorry Matt, I have done literally hundreds of off peak days over the decades, with very few lengthy queues, and sometimes, in every decade but this one, where every ride is walk on, pretty much all day.
If you go and queue for the big new headline attraction, in the school holidays, on a sunny day, you get lots of two/threehour queues...for the big coasters!
All the other attractions, and there were a lot more of them remember, had much shorter queues.
Want a bit of shelter from the weather...go for a meal at one of half a dozen spots, including the Swiss Cottage and railway carriage for a half decent steak, or "high tea" within the towers, and for shelter again...at least half a dozen attractions, cinema or shows...or the daft dancing fountains...or a quiet half hour watching the massive, multi level model railway, run through night and day in about half an hour.
All missing now, not many options.
The day out now is less rounded, there is simply less to do over the full day apart from queue for the "big rides".

Yes, but I would argue that queues for the headline attractions are generally shorter now than they were, which must count for something.

I went during the summer holidays, on two very sunny days, last year, and I did not once queue 2-3 hours for a major attraction. None of the queues went much over an hour, from memory, even on things like Smiler and Wicker Man. From what I gather, that’s far shorter than they were on a typical weekend back in the day, which must result in an improved experience for the average guest. I’ve been repeatedly informed that on a weekend or peak day, every major ride queue, even older ones like Corkscrew and Black Hole, being multiple hours in length was par for the course back in the day, which it certainly isn’t now. People who went in that decade have always told me that they got on far less rides in a day than they do now.

If I’m wrong, then fair enough. As I say, my assumptions about prior decades are based on anecdotes rather than first hand experience, but in my view, shorter queues for headline attractions must count for something.

 

[Matt.GC]

I used to be taken in the summer holidays every year as a kid since 1988. The longest I ever waited was near 3 hours for Nemesis in opening year. Waited over an hour for Oblivion on a June year 10 school trip in 1998 with a girl I fancied. But other than that, queues weren't a problem. Don't think I ever waited more than an hour for Black Hole or Corkscrew. From 92 onwards, me and my brother used to go off and do our own thing during August trips which tended to be 7pm closes. We'd always knock off all the coasters we wanted, Around the World, HH, Cine 2000, the Rapids, Log Flume and had time for numerous re-rides on the flats and a family sit down lunch.

There was far more variety back then. Getting on rides was never a problem so not sure where that's come from? Maybe the odd bad experience of people you know? I wouldn't say it's ever changed much. Worth noting though, that in the mid 90's, the park attracted more guests than it does now, the days of 3m+ guests per year are long gone. The coaster lineup itself was also lower capacity than now. But at least you had more things to do outside of the coasters.

 

[rob666]

Brand new coaster, summer holiday...two to three hour queue due to random breakdowns and issues.
By the time it is coaster number two, the queue drops by an hour.
Hasn't that been the way at the Towers, right back to the Corkscrew?
And Matt, you went in a summer with no big new attraction this year ...simple answer.
How long was the first year queue for the smiler and the woodie?

 

[Matt N]

And Matt, you went in a summer with no big new attraction this year ...simple answer.
How long was the first year queue for the smiler and the woodie?

Admittedly multiple hours, but a recurring theme I’ve always heard in anecdotes from both family and enthusiasts is that queues on peak days are generally far shorter now than they were back in the day.

Interestingly, my parents and I just had lunch together, and I asked them for their opinions on this topic, as people who regularly visited during the 1990s and have been going since the 1980s.

They corroborated my assumption about queues being far longer; they talked about “queueing hours for things like the Log Flume and the Black Hole” and “queueing through bits of Nemesis that have only been seen during COVID”.

They stated that in their view, the park is better now than it was back then because “there are more rides” and “there are better rides”. Their view was that they thoroughly disagree with the notion of the 1990s being the “golden age”. They did admit, however, that some of the shows are missed and that they don’t think much to the modern day food, although my mum followed that up with “although with that being said, the food was nothing spectacular in the 90s”.

 

[James]

I feel under Merlin it has always been a case of where we see consistent investment, something is lost/declines in quality. Take 2023, Duel refurb (great), Aramark controlling F&B (bad), lots of events (good-ish), continued use of fairground rides with no sign of new flats (bad).

I get excited seeing new investments then remember the state of the rest of park and the overall decline in quality. Notably Merlin fail to ensure rides/attractions/theming remains looking fresh and as good as new. It gives the park a very neglected feeling. All while prices rise.

The reason people praise the 90s/early 00s so much is because a day at Alton Towers was more than simply getting through the roller coasters and going home. There was a variety of street entertainment/parades, sit down shows, flat/walk-through rides. It wasn’t just about the coasters.

 

[Earthwürm]

The park have obviously made improvements in the last few decades, but it's usually at the expense of something else. Fix one thing, neglect another. It's turned into one big game of whack-a-mole, and they never seem to get ahead of the problems.

I acknowledge that if you took the Alton towers of the mid to late 90s and slapped it down today in the modern world, much of it would feel horribly dated and it wouldn't leave many people impressed with the offerings, but at the time it was truly world class. Today, it's fallen well behind the pack with no sense of direction and is desperately trying to claw it's way back.

I was a big fan of the park as a kid, through my teens and into my early twenties until I felt the increasing cost no longer reflected the product on offer and I voted with my feet. I didn't go back for ten years. And when I did, I absolutely felt there had been improvements, but there had been neglect and dodgy half-arsed fixes in equal measure. I truly hope the improvements continue and the park flourishes. I just think there is a long way to go, and the current bout of investment, while better than the previous decade, is too small and short sighted to convince me that a corner has been turned and the park will be a world leader again in the years to come.

 

[Dave]

We have to be careful jumping to conclusions on a few things.

1) Attendance figures are not a good indicator of success. Since covid a lot of parks have seen the value in having fewer guests who spend more so they are not always pushing to boost gate figures.

2) Flat rides are exceptionally expensive at the moment, unfortunately I think Merlin are caught out by their decades of long neglect on flat rides but now hampered by how much they cost v their marketability.

3) They have identified a need to refresh existing rides, hence Nemesis and Duel refurbs.

I would say the only obvious deliberate decline since Lego took the majority share (well their parent company) is the resort side, there we have seen a huge increase in price with a large decrease in quality. I suspect this is because Merlin are less agile in changing their operating model for hotels compared to big hotel operators and are depending heavily on agency and outsourcing.

 

[RyanUK]

I have succumbed to the fact that the park has been in long term decline for almost 2 decades, yes. Is it still in long term decline though? That's the subject of the thread.

It's great that not everyone agrees with me, I want to be convinced that it's not and that some sort of bright future lies ahead! But you seem to be repeatedly mentioning what you see as reasons/excuses for decline, be it tree lines, pandemics, economic factors or a crash (caused by their own negligence, after which you seemed to have abandoned the park yourself as a result of it for a few years?) rather than deny it's happening? So you do yourself think the park is in decline?

The reasons I have mentioned are the true reasons we have seen some cutbacks. No, I don’t think the park is in decline. And as for negligence, I never abandoned the park but just took a few years out from them. I have always enjoyed theme parks and never expected to stay away for so long. During that period, it found me my partner who is now my wife, so it was bloody worth it!

Now, you can’t exactly compare the park to the decline of the high street but look around at general businesses or attractions which you might enjoy a day out or a few hours visiting. In the past they might’ve offered something that is now not there. There could be a number of reasons why. I’ve found this in the last few years at several places, sometimes that removal might be a better thing.

The world is in a state right now - cost of living crisis, Ukraine, pandemic aftermath, and more. And you’re worried about a park in Staffordshire which you feel is in decline, the general response I’m seeing here it generally isn’t, but then I feel only areas of Alton Towers can be in decline or improvement, not the park as a whole.

You say you feel like it’s been in decline for almost 2 decades. As a theme park, Alton Towers is 43 this year, so you’re telling us all here you feel about half of its life has been in decline?

Really…

Personally, I would make the argument that it’s not all doom and gloom like some make out.

I would also argue that in some regards, the park is better than it’s ever been, and has, dare I say, improved since the “golden era”, from what I know about how things were back then.

For instance, the rollercoaster lineup is arguably better and more varied than ever. You can argue for days about their quality compared to those of other parks, but Alton Towers now hits most bases within its rollercoaster lineup, which it certainly didn’t in the prior decades, and the breadth of major coasters on offer is rivalled by few other parks in Europe. I know that many on here are very dismissive of rollercoasters as an important element to a good park, but they are important, in my view, and for the average visitor, I’d wager that the selection of major coasters on offer makes the park very appealing. With 10 coasters, consisting of 5 1.4m thrill rides, 3 1.2m family thrill rides and 2 0.9m family rides, the coaster selection now is arguably more varied, expansive and attractive than it’s ever been. In my view, the strength of the park’s rollercoaster selection is not to be sniffed at, and it is certainly an area in which the park has vastly improved and is stronger than ever in.

Based on anecdotes I’ve heard from people who visited during the “golden era”, I’d also raise the issue of queues. While the park had a lot of very exciting investment during the 90s, a repeated theme I’ve heard raised by people who visited in that decade such as my parents is that the queues were massive and the average ride count in a day was considerably lower. People like my parents tell me stories about rides like Nemesis, Oblivion, Corkscrew and Black Hole having queues of multiple hours in length, and I’ve heard it said that back in those days, it was expected that you would only get on 3 or 4 rides in a day due to the sheer length of the queues for everything. Nowadays, it isn’t too hard to get on most of, if not all of, the park’s major rides on an average weekend day; from my experience, queues generally don’t exceed 1 hour too regularly and don’t exceed 90 minutes or so outside of a select few peak days. Ride count per day generally tends to be higher these days than it apparently was back in the day, and for the average guest, that must surely result in an improved experience, no? I often hear people complain on here about standing around queueing for things all day, but based on the anecdotes I’ve been told, surely you did a lot more of that during the “golden era” for less return considering how long the queues allegedly were?

Furthermore, I gather that the park didn’t really have events back in the 90s to the degree that it does today. While I admit that events were less of a thing in general back in the day, the Alton Towers of 2023 has a very expansive event lineup. We’ve got 5 different events running during the main season, as well as Christmas and February Half Term, which is a very expansive lineup indeed and offers a great incentive for repeat visits for those who enjoy events. The events also offer non-ride entertainment for those who are so inclined, as well as more unique and expansive food offerings in many cases. To my knowledge, the park has never offered a more expansive event lineup.

In terms of how the park is “improving”, I’d also argue that the onus on filler is improving somewhat with recent investments. Whether you like it or not, Gangsta Granny did give the park a new family dark ride and a new filler attraction that it didn’t have before. The Curse at Alton Manor also represents a substantial investment into the filler lineup, and while it is directly replacing an existing filler ride, I’d certainly argue that it could be a considerable net gain for the filler lineup if it is superior to Duel. Furthermore, the strongly rumoured return of Nemesis Sub-Terra will strengthen the filler lineup further if it does come to fruition.

I admit that many of my assumptions about the 90s are based on anecdotes rather than first hand experience, so I apologise if I’m wrong on any of these. But based on what I know, that’s my opinion on why it’s not all doom and gloom, why the park is on the up, and why the park may possibly be better than ever in some regards.

Others have responded to this post by Matt about the queue times, and having read his post and those, I feel Matt is right with his original post. Fair enough, it’s what he sees and I can see where he’s coming from. I’ve only ever gone to the park once on a weekend, it was busy but not extremely busy. My visits have usually been during the week and that’s how it’ll always be. Even then, it can be busy with your average queue 30-60 minutes. I’ll also agree that the rollercoaster lineup is good, infact I remember the first year I went and realising there was rides with a mix of Chessington and Thorpe put together, but on a more family level - not too extreme but enough to thrill.

 

[Trooper Looper]

I personally believe the park is in a bit of a Tangent between decline and improving the experience, but fails to notice which areas or aspects of the park need the work done. I believe the parks ugly Duckings are the much nore recent additions of the last 15 years that have made the park feel like a bur of mess, such as Dark Foreest not being that great of a themed area, the terrible rehash of X-Sector, abandoning the originally intended Oblivion styled theme and gone for a more typical route while making it overly noticeable and not feeling coherent in the area from its over the top feel and obnoxious soundtrack.

Retheming/redoing already existing attractions or areas with a poor budget that botches the areas surrounding theming that makes no sense now or doesn't like up up its previous form (Air, Towers Street, and The Dungeons). Allowing classic attractions to be ran down to the bare minimum if their original high quality and effects, like the Rapids, Duel, and former Flat Rides.

Of Course, Merlin have their ups too, such as expanding the Coaster selection in the park with exceptional teeming from their most recent addition, Wicker Man, and the Marmaliser from The Smiler. They are really damn good in most parts of their take on the SW program I believe if you look at the coasters alone and nor the areas they're in. The only thing stopping them from being amazing are how these rides interact with the areas they are placed in. Th13teen, a good family coaster with a really creepy theme apart from the construction supports, messed up the former Thunder Rock Valley area, and whats left of that area feels very poorly integrated into Dark Forest. I've already had my say on the smiler, so we'll skip that, but Wicker Man, a fantastic attraction alone, doesn't make any sense to be between Mutiny Bay and Katanga Kanyon, thankfully Wicker Man's is the least noticeable, and Merlin have definitely improved slowly over the years not to make the SW attractions theming not as obscure and noticeable in a bad manner as they used to be, but that still isn't all great.

Like people have said, they need to focus on more things like more Non Coaster attractions, such as Water Rides, flat rides. Another Factor to bring in is the overabundance of Intellectual property, which if you count the number of attractions at the park individually, half of them have an IP on them, which I believe really doesn't give the park the variety is needs in terms of Theming as they continue to take the safe route with these Characters from Books, Telly, etc. IPs aren't aren't bad when they are used to the right degree, but AT uses IP too often I believe and really makes the park former unique feel, and theming it had feel a lot more generic and commercial. People go to Alton Tiwers because of how magical it was and how every area was like a different world and a different place. I think these IP areas and attractions don't really deliver that in AT in this quantity.

Charterhouse Tussauds began the decline, but Merlin decided to make the slope even steeper.

I'm hoping that this season shows we're on a path of improvements, but I'm still very skeptical with Duel/HHs and Nemesis massive refurb. We don't know what they'll be like yet, so I'm not keeping my hopes high if either of them end up as a bit of a disappointment.

As for Hotels...

No, just, no. They are living proof of how the park has been in a downward spiral. Nothing else needs to be said about them...

 

[Matt N]

Another Factor to bring in is the overabundance of Intellectual property, which if you count the number of attractions at the park individually, half of them have an IP on them, which I believe really doesn't give the park the variety is needs in terms of Theming as they continue to take the safe route with these Characters from Books, Telly, etc. IPs aren't aren't bad when they are used to the right degree, but AT uses IP too often I believe and really makes the park former unique feel, and theming it had feel a lot more generic and commercial. People go to Alton Tiwers because of how magical it was and how every area was like a different world and a different place. I think these IP areas and attractions don't really deliver that in AT in this quantity.

I may have said this before, so I apologise if I’m repeating myself here, but it is worth noting that all of the IP attractions presently operating at Alton Towers are encompassed within two big umbrella IPs. Only two individual IPs now exist at the park. CBeebies Land makes up a considerable percentage of the IP attractions operating at Alton Towers, and the other percentage is made up by The World of David Walliams.

With IP lands like these, they will naturally encompass a large number of individual attractions, so if you take every single attraction in each land on its own, that will naturally make the percentage of IP rides seem quite high.

However, I’d actually argue that the tables have turned for IPs at Alton Towers in recent years. 5-10 years ago, many people had a strong feeling that the park would receive lots of IP rides, but the number of IPs at Alton Towers has actually decreased, and there’s no sign of it imminently increasing any time soon. We’ve lost Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, Sonic Spinball got de-themed back to Spinball Whizzer and we’ve lost Ice Age 4D.

Not to mention that we’re currently in the process of seeing a Duel retheme without any external IP take shape. That probably seems very minor, but to me, it is quite a big sign that the tables may have turned against IPs. That project would have seemed ripe for an IP a few years back, so in my view, the fact that they are giving it an original theme represents quite a stark change in mentality. The Nemesis retrack is also unlikely to have an external IP as part of its theme, and furthermore, John Wardley inferred in the Lift Hills & Thrills interview that Project Horizon/SW9 will have an original theme as opposed to an IP. With that in mind, it does sound as though original themes may be back in style at Alton Towers/Merlin.

 

[Ethan]

Oblivions theme is non existent. A few old Tv screens with Daniel craig trying to intimidate you. It's a terrible presentation of what the theme is suppose to be. Personally think it's just as bad as Rita for the lack of theming

 

[RyanUK]

What are IP’s? I sort of understand it but what do they stand for?

I personally believe the park is in a bit of a Tangent between decline and improving the experience, but fails to notice which areas or aspects of the park need the work done. I believe the parks ugly Duckings are the much nore recent additions of the last 15 years that have made the park feel like a bur of mess, such as Dark Foreest not being that great of a themed area, the terrible rehash of X-Sector, abandoning the originally intended Oblivion styled theme and gone for a more typical route while making it overly noticeable and not feeling coherent in the area from its over the top feel and obnoxious soundtrack.

Retheming/redoing already existing attractions or areas with a poor budget that botches the areas surrounding theming that makes no sense now or doesn't like up up its previous form (Air, Towers Street, and The Dungeons). Allowing classic attractions to be ran down to the bare minimum if they’re original high quality and effects, like the Rapids, Duel, and former Flat Rides.

Wnen Ug Land was converted to Dark Forest I was unsure for a bit but I have grown to prefer it. What was a loud area suddenly became much quieter. I understand why Oblivion was painted black when The Smiler opened but just don’t think it was necessary. The Smiler was a great addition to the park but to an extent dominates X Sector so much that you look up at Oblivion sitting there tall and proud, constantly reminding you that it is king of the area. There isn’t really a much better The Smiler could’ve gone but at the same time there’s something about it which isn’t quite right for the X Sector.

What is it you feel is not right about the 2 mentioned areas, @Trooper Looper? I will say that in Derek Forest, some parts still show the signs of it’s former land, but hey that what’s comes with most areas at parks which have had theme changes.

Losing some great flat rides such as Charlie and Duel are bad. Galactica is just awful as a theme. I didn’t realise until I saw that interview about Air with JW on YouTube that the landscaping and tunnel weren’t done. 20 years later and they’ve had that chance to do something about it…but no.

 

[Trooper Looper]

What are IP’s? I sort of understand it but what do they stand for?

Wnen Ug Land was converted to Dark Forest I was unsure for a bit but I have grown to prefer it. What was a loud area suddenly became much quieter. I understand why Oblivion was painted black when The Smiler opened but just don’t think it was necessary. The Smiler was a great addition to the park but to an extent dominates X Sector so much that you look up at Oblivion sitting there tall and proud, constantly reminding you that it is king of the area. There isn’t really a much better The Smiler could’ve gone but at the same time there’s something about it which isn’t quite right for the X Sector.

What is it you feel is not right about the 2 mentioned areas, @Trooper Looper? I will say that in Derek Forest, some parts still show the signs of it’s former land, but hey that what’s comes with most areas at parks which have had theme changes.

Losing some great flat rides such as Charlie and Duel are bad. Galactica is just awful as a theme. I didn’t realise until I saw that interview about Air with JW on YouTube that the landscaping and tunnel weren’t done. 20 years later and they’ve had that chance to do something about it…but no.

IPs stand for Intellectual Property, like characters or other pieces of media, like films, Television programs, comic book characters, etc. Basically, Non-original ideas.

I like Dark Forest A BIT, but it shouldn't take someone 13 years to begin liking the area, that's just bad design and theming in total. A newly themed area should be liked and relieved well at day one, if not, it might as well be considered a failure from a business and a creative standpoint.

 

[Earthwürm]

The biggest problem with dark forest was that we already had a similarly themed spooky block paved wooded area with far better execution.

 

[Zeock]

I really do think they are turning a corner now. Almost everyone says that TCAAM is superb. Gloomy Wood looks immersive, and seems to contain themed food, and it also seems like Congo River Rapids might have its waterfalls back on again. The Nemesis retrack also shows this too, and Sub-Terra seems to be opening this year. With Project Horizon on the err.. Horizon, I am optimistic for Towers' future.

 

[s_g_k]

I really do think they are turning a corner now. Almost everyone says that Alty Mans is superb. Gloomy Wood looks immersive, and seems to contain themed food, and it also seems like Congo River Rapids might have its waterfalls back on again. The Nemesis retrack also shows this too, and Sub-Terra seems to be opening this year. With Project Horizon on the err.. Horizon, I am optimistic for Towers' future.

Agreed. We just need a handful of permanent flats and a couple more restaurant options / more food variety on park and the park will be back up there again! Towers Street is screaming for a carvery type restaurant, then perhaps an Asian style themed buffet somewhere else.

 

[Zeock]

Agreed. We just need a handful of permanent flats and a couple more restaurant options / more food variety on park and the park will be back up there again! Towers Street is screaming for a carvery type restaurant, then perhaps an Asian style themed buffet somewhere else.

Agreed. Also, personally, I would like Galactica to have a re-theme to fit in with the rest of Forbidden Valley for 2024.

 

[RyanUK]

I really do think they are turning a corner now. Almost everyone says that Alty Mans is superb. Gloomy Wood looks immersive, and seems to contain themed food, and it also seems like Congo River Rapids might have its waterfalls back on again. The Nemesis retrack also shows this too, and Sub-Terra seems to be opening this year. With Project Horizon on the err.. Horizon, I am optimistic for Towers' future.

What you highlight here just scratches the surface and for some people isn’t nowhere near enough for turning that corner. Other issues lye right across the resort and into the hotels and water park (for which I can’t comment on as I’ve never used them).

 

[Zimba]

Wnen Ug Land was converted to Dark Forest I was unsure for a bit but I have grown to prefer it. What was a loud area suddenly became much quieter. I understand why Oblivion was painted black when The Smiler opened but just don’t think it was necessary. The Smiler was a great addition to the park but to an extent dominates X Sector so much that you look up at Oblivion sitting there tall and proud, constantly reminding you that it is king of the area. There isn’t really a much better The Smiler could’ve gone but at the same time there’s something about it which isn’t quite right for the X Sector.

What is it you feel is not right about the 2 mentioned areas, @Trooper Looper? I will say that in Derek Forest, some parts still show the signs of it’s former land, but hey that what’s comes with most areas at parks which have had theme changes.

Losing some great flat rides such as Charlie and Duel are bad. Galactica is just awful as a theme. I didn’t realise until I saw that interview about Air with JW on YouTube that the landscaping and tunnel weren’t done. 20 years later and they’ve had that chance to do something about it…but no.

I know you posted this a month ago but just had to comment. Removing Ug Land was a big mistake imo. It was the only area of the part which really focused on older kids and was a fun area with the water fountains and a bunch of rides which catered for them including most they're first 'proper' coaster in the Corkscrew and a Flintstone design (as that's what it was basically).

Rita was and always has been the issue. It just doesn't belong there at all and stuck out like a sore thumb. The area was never designed for riders over 1.4m - there's already X Sector and Forbidden Valley for that but they just wanted something big and quick and it was just dumped there.

It's still a blight now pretty much but there wasn't any point keeping Ug Land with Rita there as it just didn't make sense and was a mess anyway.

Charlie is a dreadful ride aswell, Toyland Tours in it's broken state at the end was still better than that on it's best days. One of, if not, worst changes in Alton Towers but it pretty much sums up 2004 - 2010 which was by far the worst years. I'm struggling to think of anything actually positive in that period. Spinball being average at best and dumped in another area being the only other real investment other than Mutiny Bay which wasn't exactly a massive change and don't get me started on the Imperial Leather Flume or Professor Burb at Chessington which really can't be ignored.

 

[RyanUK]

Rita never fit in the best with Ug Land but in its present form as Dark Forest does work better. I actually enjoyed Charlie, I never rode Toyland Tours as it had closed by my first ever visit.