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Football Discussion

Florentino Perez, the Real Madrid president, has come out with some complete and utter tosh to try and justify the need for this league! He's always been a complete and utter.....!

I think the Spanish and Italian teams feel they need it from a financial perspective. And the English teams, especially Manchester United and Liverpool, see it is an outstanding commercial venture.
 
Benzin said:
"It makes economic sense!" say the owners who spent over £100m on an ageing Hazard and Ronaldo respectively.
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And then they'll be willing to pay £1mil a week to Haaland.

Im surprised how much this has all affected me tbh, really down about it all. Even if it doesn't happen now the fact that my club signed up is unforgivable. That relationship is shattered and there's no going back now.
 
rob666 said:
Sorry Tom, every team in English football can aspire to getting into the Premiership, through proper promotion and relegation.
This idea is simple closed shop protectionism...nothing like the Premier League.
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They are saying there will be a qualification route. We need more details on that, but the premise is there so theoretically anyone good enough could enter. The idea that the teams would be voluntarily walking away from the Premier League has also been dispelled.

I’m not keen on the idea but a lot of people’s basis for their hate appears to be factually some way off. The current system is an absolute ripoff and has destroyed many smaller clubs over the decades. The prices are sky high and out of reach for many.

The only legitimate argument that seems to be going about is the fact that the founding teams cannot be relegated.
 
Tom said:
They are saying there will be a qualification route. We need more details on that, but the premise is there so theoretically anyone good enough could enter. The idea that the teams would be voluntarily walking away from the Premier League has also been dispelled.

I’m not keen on the idea but a lot of people’s basis for their hate appears to be factually some way off. The current system is an absolute ripoff and has destroyed many smaller clubs over the decades. The prices are sky high and out of reach for many.

The only legitimate argument that seems to be going about is the fact that the founding teams cannot be relegated.
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A qualification route, for 5 teams in the rest of Europe. 5 teams. Yes that is right, 5 teams. And if one of those 5 teams was to win in, they would receive less money than a founder club who finishes bottom. Lovely jubbly.

Screw them. I would rather Leicester City qualify for the Champions League along with the likes of PSG, Bayern Munich, Brossia Dortmund, Porto, Ajax, Napoli, Roma etc.
 
In England though, those 6 teams will be getting an extra £350 million a year, compared to the other teams in England. They can afford to spend more, pay more, and I know that is already the case, but this makes the difference a lot bigger. With 6 teams already in the ESS, do you honestly think they are going to let other English teams join in?

The champions league historically has always required a team to qualify for it, and the new rules do give another way for the top European teams who have a bad season to qualify if there previous seasons performance has been good enough. No one was guaranteed a spot in the competition.

Maybe I am more of a casual football fan, but I don't go out of my way to watch football when its not Crystal Palace playing. I hardly ever watch the European Competitions, even though I have BT Sport. If I am at home, and not doing anything I will put the football on and watch it, but it could be a league 1 game, or a premier league game. I would not go out of my way to watch ESS or purchase an extra subscription to watch it.

I would have no problem with those 6 clubs not taking part in the Premier League anymore, it might mean the league loses some value, and the revenue from the broadcast rights drop, but again, I don't really see that as a bad thing.

If the ESS does go ahead, and the clubs get kicked out of their leagues, it would not surprise me if before long, it turned in to something similar to F1, where the ESS will sell that weeks fixtures to the highest bidder, and then from Friday to Monday, that city/stadium would host that round of games. I suspect there is some cities out there that would pay a significant amount to host a weekend of this competition.

As for the players, I suspect they are the ones who can stop this from happening. If there is a ban on them playing in international competitions and that ban survives all the legal challenges, are they going to be willing to leave those clubs, in which case the ESS falls apart if it does not have the best players, or will the 20, 30, 40% pay rises that come tempt them to stick it out?
 
Rob said:
A qualification route, for 5 teams in the rest of Europe. 5 teams. Yes that is right, 5 teams. And if one of those 5 teams was to win in, they would receive less money than a founder club who finishes bottom. Lovely jubbly.

Screw them. I would rather Leicester City qualify for the Champions League along with the likes of PSG, Bayern Munich, Brossia Dortmund, Porto, Ajax, Napoli, Roma etc.
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I agree that it's bad, but we need more details. We also need more accuracy from some of the hysterical millionaire pundits that have made a fortune from ripping off people for years. It is not an entirely 'closed shop' if there is a way of getting into it on merit.

There's way too much hysteria going about suggesting that the status quo and the Premier League is some sort of socialist not-for-profit enterprise.

It's taken a global pandemic for top-flight games to be on free-to-air television for the first time in decades. Season tickets are into the thousands at some clubs, while hundreds of places are reserved for millionaires and VIPs at every game.

If the Super League is one step too far in terms of capitalism and greed to people, then fair enough - but there is little-to-no acknowledgment that the top-flight game as it stands now is already greedy and destructive.
 
I did read yesterday someone that went through the proposal and the initial detail was that the founders get over 100 million a season for turning up before any other revenue.

If you are one of the lucky 5 to qualify you can win a maximum of 30 million compare that to the potential 120 million you get for winning the champions league.

Comparison between this and the premier league are completely different. I am not saying the PL is the perfect model as if you get relegated you are on a better footing than the rest of the championship. On the flip side you can get promoted and win the premier league.


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Ignoring a couple of league cups, (over a decade ago), Tottenham have won sod all in thirty years.
Why the hell should they be in this wonderful new league...oh...do they have money?
 
rob666 said:
Ignoring a couple of league cups, (over a decade ago), Tottenham have won sod all in thirty years.
Why the hell should they be in this wonderful new league...oh...do they have money?
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They have a big stadium and they're growing in the Asian markets. It's all about potential and marketability. Same as the Premier League, this is just a new level of greed rather than a switch from socialism to capitalism like some are making it out to be.
 
Do you know what's really stupid about all of this though?

What's driving this is the fact that even many of these massive clubs are not making any profit and the owners obviously don't like that. I'm guessing that probably 80% plus of their outgoings are through player wages, agents fees and other incentives. These clubs decide to WILLINGLY give these ridiculous wages to players etc in order try to win more but it still doesn't end up meaning making a profit in the end. The answer is to lower the amount of wages that you're willing to pay to ensure that you can make a profit at the end of the season.

The irony is that when/if they get this money from being in the superleague, the clubs will just transfer most of it to the players and their agents again and be back to square one. Then what?

There is enough money coming in to the Premier League (especially) via TV rights for all of the teams to make a little profit, it's just the choices that the clubs make themselves with regards to outgoings that means that they fail in that pursuit. When you get to the stage that you're willingly giving players £200,000 a week to play a game of football then you're the problem, not the league that you're in.
 
There's (unofficial) talk of salary caps like the NBA system, so would actually be a regression from unrestricted free market in terms of wages we see in the Premier League - if true.

If anyone is interested in broadening their thoughts from the 99.9% biased coverage, see this interview with president Florentino Perez: Florentino Perez’ FULL Interview regarding The European Super League with El Chiringuito - Managing Madrid

"We have 15 teams and another five teams will enter. It will not be a closed league. The five teams will earn their place every season. Again, I repeat, the Super League is not a closed league. That’s totally false. It’s an open league that any good team can reach, regardless of the name. If you win the UCL, you receive €120 to €130m from UEFA, but with Super League we will earn much more. Any team can enter — Sevilla is one of the clubs that can enter the League. It will not be closed. We believe in what the clubs can offer so they will fight to play in the competition."
 
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The below was written during the Chelsea news coming out, but I'm posting it anyway!

It's not an open league when 75% of those in it have no fear or risk of relegation. That's not a competition, it's a series of exhibition matches for the vast majority of the participants. How are those 5 teams decided amongst the myriad of leagues and competitions across Europe? If one of those 5 teams win the ESL, do they stay on to defend their title next season? If so, then there's only 4 teams who can be invited into the league the next season.

Guardiola put it best today: "It is not sport if the relationship between the effort and reward doesn't exist." and "It is not sport if it doesn't matter if you lose".

Criticising the ESL does not automatically mean everyone thinks the PL is some kind of socialist not-for-profit enterprise, I don't think I've seen anyone making out that's the case - it's not a binary choice between the two. Fans have long wanted to see clubs and organisations like the PL giving a damn about the fans. You only have to look at the protests that have been apparent for years now against the likes of the Glazers, FSG or in the case of my own club - Mike Ashley. Or more generally the uproar over ridiculous transfer fees and the constant schedule changes for matches at the behest of the TV companies.

The reason for the increased "hysteria" as you put it around this announcement is that it represents an acceleration of what people have already been fearing and experiencing for decades. No matter how much money has been pumped into many of these clubs, the people in the areas they reside in still see them as part of the community. It's clubs that families have supported for generations, throughout the highs and the lows. There's a massive sense of pride and belonging, and the ESL threatens that being taken away from them. Yes from a business point of view they want to expand, but there needs to be a realisation from these owners that football clubs are not your typical business. The supporters who turn up at matches and travel across the country for away games make football great, exciting and interesting. And that may sound cheesy, but you only have to look at how soulless matches on TV have become since they've been crowd-less, and how little competitive advantage there currently is between a home and an away game. Players have often spoke in the last year about how much of a difference the fans make too.

Currently, PL games both home and away are generally accessible for fans within the UK. If these clubs ended up leaving the PL, the fans stand to lose those special games like local derbies and matches against long standing rivals that they love. They stand to end up travelling across Europe at far greater expense. On a speculative front, on account of the want to increase international appeal and American owners, it's entirely possible that matches could even be held globally, with premium ticket prices and huge allocations of tickets dished out to corporate sponsors over actual fans.

No one thinks the Premier League is perfect, it's just the lesser evil of the two.
 
Yesterday the government were talking about stepping in with legislature if necessary. I guess now the clubs have withdrawn they won't take any further action. If they don't, that will be a missed opportunity.

It strikes me that a regulation for majority ownership by fans (ala Germany clubs) would help to prevent this kind of nonsense and reign in the greed of some owners.
 


Football fans are fickle and have short memories but I hope when fans can get back in there is some form of long term protest.

The politicians are circling whilst it's in vogue but they'll talk hot air to distract from covid until the next big thing comes up. Ultimately the Sky/BT pundits will give it a kicking for the next few days and then slowly dwindle off now they have their victory and job security. I hope I'm wrong but none of them will be as vocal on reforming the current structure for the fans as they were in the last 48 hours.

Time to get sweeping
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It was joyous to watch it all falling apart last night. And I am very much looking forward to seeing the reaction of Florentino Perez.

But Craig is right, there need to be repercussions. These six clubs signed a contract to join another league, that is more than just joining some talks about setting one up. They signed a legally binding contract, and now have their lawyers working out how to get out of this contract. There needs to be a sanction that shows that doing anything like this again is wholly unnacceptable.

I've see people say that a points deduction would not be fair because it hurts the players, the fans and those at the clubs who have done no wrong. Well the same applies when teams get a points deduction for entering administration. The fans and the team get punished for mismanagement at the top. It should be the same here. Either a Premier League point deduction for this season or next; or a temporary exclusion from UEFA competitions.

It is also quite amusing to see some of the statements from the clubs about the errors of judgements they made. Did they seriously not realise that this was going to go down like a lead balloon with fans in England?
 
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