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Forbidden Valley: Future Changes?

Merlin own the top 4 visited parks in the UK with somewhere in the region of 7million visitors per year.

Quite simply they don’t need to spend the money. Upping their game at Alton Towers would only serve to show up their other parks efforts. Right now they don’t have any significant competition to have to do anything else.
 
I thought we were way past comparing the likes of Phantasialand with Merlin parks. They've operated in different leagues for years. Merlin have never built anything of that quality and it would be odd if they suddenly started doing so out of the blue.

That doesn't mean that everything Merlin builds is tat because it isn't. But if it's not fair to compare them with Disney and Universal, then it isn't fair to compare them with Phantasialand, who operate a good quality Theme Park. Merlin operate Amusement Parks with elements of theming in them.
 
I'm not familiar with the history of Phantasia Land, but Alton and Chessington have both gradually evolved from being other things rather than being a purpose built Theme Park, plus there's somewhat of a heritage aspect to it. Also the notoriously difficult UK planning permissions...
 
I feel the quality has improved with Merlin over the years. Say, comparing Wicker Man to Th13teen (or The Smiler). Upkeep is more of an issue, and themed lands are not being created alongside these big investments (or done on the cheap - Dark Forest).

It appears with Forbidden Valley, there's an attempt at creating more of a coherently themed area where everything links in (Galactica aside). Whether the military theme is liked or not is purely subjective, but it looks like there will be multiple pieces of theming in the area, which can only be good. It feels like a step forward to me.
 
Matt.GC said:
I thought we were way past comparing the likes of Phantasialand with Merlin parks. They've operated in different leagues for years. Merlin have never built anything of that quality and it would be odd if they suddenly started doing so out of the blue.

That doesn't mean that everything Merlin builds is tat because it isn't. But if it's not fair to compare them with Disney and Universal, then it isn't fair to compare them with Phantasialand, who operate a good quality Theme Park. Merlin operate Amusement Parks with elements of theming in them.
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Alton Towere is a theme park, other than the retro squad which has thankfully now departed, there is little of an Amusement Park feel to it.

Disney and Universal are goliaths of the industry who operate on a totally different financial budget to virtually anyone else, it’s totally unreasonable to therefore expect Alton Towers to produce something, such as The World of Pandora, for example.

What isn’t unreasonable is to ask why, when they redesign an iconic coaster and re-theme the area housing it; that they aren’t pushing for slightly more than they’ve delivered.

As I’ve said before, im sure I’ll like it anyway, I’m a fan of theme personally and think it makes sense, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t ever ask the question as to why they couldn’t be looking to do a bit better though, I don’t really buy the amusement park line because very little of the park screams amusement to me, I think you’d have better case making that argument for Thorpe Park personally.
 
Matt.GC said:
I thought we were way past comparing the likes of Phantasialand with Merlin parks. They've operated in different leagues for years. Merlin have never built anything of that quality and it would be odd if they suddenly started doing so out of the blue.

That doesn't mean that everything Merlin builds is tat because it isn't. But if it's not fair to compare them with Disney and Universal, then it isn't fair to compare them with Phantasialand, who operate a good quality Theme Park. Merlin operate Amusement Parks with elements of theming in them.
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I don’t think it’s unfair at all to compare a Merlin Theme Park to the likes of Phantasialand.

They operate at similar financial levels and PL are independently ran compared to the financial income of Merlin. Realistically a lot of their income will come from Midway attractions across the world, Madam Tussauds is one of their highest earners in that division. It seems logical that due to their low cost of investment in those sectors that the additional profits should be distributed to the parks towards a higher capex for their major projects.

There is however and always has been a mindset of “bare minimum” I think this is changing as others have raised the situation that although FV may not be the taste of everyone in this forum, at least it does seem a more cohesive and immersive land than previous projects. Even Alton Manor & Gloomy Wood was a clear game changer in terms of full land experience from Ye Olde Merlin.

I think realistically, it’s not unfair for us to want Merlin to invest into the theming levels typical in parks such as Phantasialand, Toverland, Efteling & Europa and it’s certainly not out of Merlin’s ability either.
 
I think they clearly have a “whole area” vision for FV which is a step in the right direction. I don’t mind the military theme as I always found the Phalanx an interesting concept. There is a question around theme clash with X-Sector but that could be managed.

My concern isn’t that, it’s some of the apparent lazy features like the standard fencing replacing themed fencing and the shipping containers. I wouldn’t have minded a helicopter in a different location but the fact a unique bit of theming has been replaced with something a little more pedestrian is disappointing.

That said I’m a big fan of the station changes and the track colour changes but then again Merlin have generally always been good at big centre piece theme elements (Wicker man big bob, huge cat mountain for Jumanji, marmalizer).

It is however not yet finished so I might feel differently once I see it in the flesh.
 
Mykeprime said:
Let's be honest, there really wasn't much to the previous theme than rocks and rust. Now we're getting a whole alien containment/ breakout disaster
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I’m glad someone else thinks this. Other than the gun, the bus and the station, there really wasn’t much to the theming. And even those pieces started to show their age near the end. Towers are really showing not telling this time. The area looks amazing
 
Old Forbidden Valley (after Thunder Looper was removed) had a theming structure near the entrance rather than a civilian helicopter, a theming structure behind Ripsaw over nothing like we have now, red waterfalls flowing into a rock pit, and at one point had a themed attraction where a corrugated shed now sits. It was just rust and (dirty) rocks (and weeds) for the latter part of its life.

I visited Universal Orlando (wasn't called that back then), Disney World, Sea World, and Busch Gardens in 1994, less than 2 months after riding Nemesis for the first time. Sure, there was loads of fiberglass and monorails going through hotels in the gun toting US of A, but Nemesis felt like it was world class to me at the time.

But even then, it was nothing like Rookburgh or Klugheim are now. The industry moved on in the 2000's, Tussauds and Merlin didn't. They have never built an area like either, and to suggest they would out of the blue would be out of character for them. Imagine if the new Forbidden Valley was of Phantasialand or Europa quality? You'd walk onto Walliams World with it's flaking primary coloured paint, Dark Forest with it's prehistoric theming painted grey, and Katanga Canyon with it's absolute nothingness, and wonder if you're in the same park.

It's an amusement park next to a gothic mansion in the woods with a few high quality theming elements, like the Wicker man structure and Nemesis creature. The likes of Phantasialand, Europa, and Efteling are theme parks. Towers isn't. The comparisons aren't valid.
 
Mykeprime said:
Let's be honest, there really wasn't much to the previous theme than rocks and rust. Now we're getting a whole alien containment/ breakout disaster
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There definitely seems to be quite a bit more in terms of theming structure.
Out of interest, does anyone know if the 'camp' under the station has been removed? I don't remember it being mentioned.
 
Matt.GC said:
Old Forbidden Valley (after Thunder Looper was removed) had a theming structure near the entrance rather than a civilian helicopter, a theming structure behind Ripsaw over nothing like we have now, red waterfalls flowing into a rock pit, and at one point had a themed attraction where a corrugated shed now sits. It was just rust and (dirty) rocks (and weeds) for the latter part of its life.

I visited Universal Orlando (wasn't called that back then), Disney World, Sea World, and Busch Gardens in 1994, less than 2 months after riding Nemesis for the first time. Sure, there was loads of fiberglass and monorails going through hotels in the gun toting US of A, but Nemesis felt like it was world class to me at the time.

But even then, it was nothing like Rookburgh or Klugheim are now. The industry moved on in the 2000's, Tussauds and Merlin didn't. They have never built an area like either, and to suggest they would out of the blue would be out of character for them. Imagine if the new Forbidden Valley was of Phantasialand or Europa quality? You'd walk onto Walliams World with it's flaking primary coloured paint, Dark Forest with it's prehistoric theming painted grey, and Katanga Canyon with it's absolute nothingness, and wonder if you're in the same park.

It's an amusement park next to a gothic mansion in the woods with a few high quality theming elements, like the Wicker man structure and Nemesis creature. The likes of Phantasialand, Europa, and Efteling are theme parks. Towers isn't. The comparisons aren't valid.
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To be fair through you leave Klugheim/Rookbergh and walk into; for example, the Chinese element of Phantasialand and again could ask yourself whether you’re in the same park, it’s not as if all of Phantasialand is anywhere near that level of theming.
 
Josh555 said:
To be fair through you leave Klugheim/Rookbergh and walk into; for example, the Chinese element of Phantasialand and again could ask yourself whether you’re in the same park, it’s not as if all of Phantasialand is anywhere near that level of theming.
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Agreed. China is far worse in Phantasialand than either area, yet still worlds away from Dark Forest or Walliams World. Every area at Towers has at least one element within it that is the equivalent of sharing at the side of the Crazy Bats warehouse. Name the crappiest part of Phantasialand, if it was built like that at Towers we'd all be claiming it's some masterpiece and some sort of proof that the "new management" are turning things around.

Theme parks come up with a concept and decide how to build it affordabily. Merlin, the midway and Legoland operator that unfortunately owns some leisure parks as well, seem to decide how much money they have and then decide the concept around that. That's why so much at Towers is themed to haunted trees, forests, and woodlands because the trees and foliage are already there.

I'm not completely disrespecting them for that as we would never have got the Nemesis pit or Oblivion hole without that mindset. Both of which were good utilisations of circumstance. But Merlin don't build themed areas and experiences. They build big expensive grand central theming structures, add a lick of dark paint to the wider area, add a few off the shelf props, a 2d Leak Sign here and there, cross their fingers, and hope for the best. Different parks, different strategies, different sections of the market, different leagues.
 
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I highly doubt we'd be raving about Geister Ricksha at Towers.

The last 2 major projects at the parks (WM and Alty Mans) have been successes. Utilising an old dark ride to revamp into a great ride is using circumstances, no? Just because Towers isn't up there theming wise with Rookburgh doesn't mean it's not a theme park.

With the Valley, there is scope for them to keep adding to it as we have seen with the new flat ride plans.
 
Poisson said:
The last 2 major projects at the parks (WM and Alty Mans) have been successes. Utilising an old dark ride to revamp into a great ride is using circumstances, no?
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Well yes, Indeed. Precisely one of the points I was making. One of the most excellent examples of using circumstance and putting the existing environment to good use in this way to enhance the experience would be Hex.
 
Fcoles07 said:
I’m glad someone else thinks this. Other than the gun, the bus and the station, there really wasn’t much to the theming. And even those pieces started to show their age near the end. Towers are really showing not telling this time. The area looks amazing
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I think the difference is the lack of substantial, long lasting and high quality elements to the area. The stone plinths everywhere, a full system of waterfalls leading into the pit, original, custom built themed structures. It's difficult to imagine any of these things happening these days. I know a lot of it is budget related, it is cheaper to buy in some shipping containers than create a bespoke building, and it is cheaper to paint on top of existing structures and theming than to create new ones. Budgets arent the fault of the creatives, the new story and theme is great, I think what people miss though is something physical that actually seems to have been designed.
 
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