Formula One

[Jb85]

My view is any punishment should not be against the driver as much as I am not a Max fan. I also feel any punishment should only be applied retrospectively if it makes material difference to the end result. In 2021 and 2022 it won't do to the team championship. Therefore the logical thing to do surely is slap them on the wrist and give them a 5% reduction in next years budget.

Repeat offence would then lead to disqualification- and the prize money that goes with it being repaid.

 

[NuttySquirrel]

It doesn't matter. They overspent. This farcical "it was on catering and sick pay" is frankly hilarious. If they overspent there that's because they used more money than they should've in other areas - i.e. car dev.

No no, it was just sandwiches!

Really, really good sandwiches...

 

[Rob]

I heard it was a mix up on an order of wings. Horner thought he was ordering lots of chicken wings for staff to eat, but it turns out they got some juicy new front and rear wings. Same thing, right!?

 

[geo4chg]

How you can conclude there should be no penalty for the driver (especially equivocating it to random, unrelated occurrences 15 years ago) in these circumstances is beyond me.

I think the more comparative example is McLaren in 2007. They were found guilty of possessing Ferrari documents, which could have given them a competitive advantage (we will never know to what extent this is the case). It could also be argued that last year, overspend may have given Red Bull a competitive advantage, so I would say they compare pretty well. In the case 2007, McLaren lost all constructor points but both Hamilton and Alonso kept their driver points, even though they would have benefitted from any advantage McLaren got from those documents. Obviously it didn't happen, but it would have been interesting to see the backlash had either Alonso or Hamilton actually won the championship.

 

[Alastair]

I think the more comparative example is McLaren in 2007. They were found guilty of possessing Ferrari documents, which could have given them a competitive advantage (we will never know to what extent this is the case). It could also be argued that last year, overspend may have given Red Bull a competitive advantage, so I would say they compare pretty well. In the case 2007, McLaren lost all constructor points but both Hamilton and Alonso kept their driver points, even though they would have benefitted from any advantage McLaren got from those documents. Obviously it didn't happen, but it would have been interesting to see the backlash had either Alonso or Hamilton actually won the championship.

The circumstances are everything though. Given neither of them won it, a driver's points deduction would have been completely immaterial. A WCC points deduction was in that instance more damaging to the team. In this case, Verstappen did win the title (and even aside from this situation, in a manner that already entailed an enormous fraudulent rule break), so a driver's points deduction would be more appropriate.

 

[Nick🎢]

There was a lot more at play there. Recommend this as a read to richen the picture. No Angel

 

[geo4chg]

The circumstances are everything though. Given neither of them won it, a driver's points deduction would have been completely immaterial.

However, they did not know this at the time the punishment was given as it was before the end of the season so it could easily have been (and was at that point looking likely) that one of their drivers won the championship.

At the moment we simply don't know enough facts in this case to say whether this rule breach was material in Verstappen winning last year's championship. Red Bull seem pretty confident they were within the cap, so I would prefer to see the extent of the breach and on what the overspend happened before casting judgement. However, I would say the chances of a points reduction for Verstappen are pretty much nil unless the FIA wants to drag the F1 name through the mud even more.

 

[WillPS]

The driver is a major part of the team.
The team overspent.
The driver has joint liability, because he is a major part of the team.
It has everything to do with the driver.

Drivers have nothing to do with the financial arrangements of a team. Zip.

Alonso/Piquet Jr in crashgate 2008 and Alonso (again) in spygate 2007 the drivers personally played a part, but were not penalised.

Perez delivered the final blow which ended the ForceIndia operation but again did not lose championship points.

Drivers don't lose points when teams fail, cheat or screw up.

 

[Nick🎢]

While this is a meme. It makes a very valid point about the politics and misdirection of the situation.

 

[geo4chg]

While this is a meme. It makes a very valid point about the politics and misdirection of the situation.

Again, I would say it is important to reserve judgement until the facts are known and actually there is every chance it is false to say that they overspent and that is why they had the fastest car. The quotes from Wolff, Binotto and Hamilton over the weekend would certainly like people to believe Red Bull won last year's championship because of overspend, but at the moment not enough facts are known to say this with any certainty. For example, it could be the case that RBR spent less than Mercedes on R&D but spent more on utilities, transport and like-for-like salaries - if this is the case, then it is right to say that the overspend was not due to R&D and therefore gaining a competitive advantage.

As I said, we simply don't know enough facts of what the overspend value was and on what it was spent to be able to cast judgement, but there is just as much politics going on from Mercedes and Ferrari as there is from Red Bull. The other thing that certainly needs addressing is how Merc and Ferrari seemed to know Red Bull had been guilty of overspending before Red Bull themselves did with enough certainly to go public in the media with it - those submissions to the FIA should be confidential.

 

[Nick🎢]

Again, I would say it is important to reserve judgement until the facts are known and actually there is every chance it is false to say that they overspent and that is why they had the fastest car. The quotes from Wolff, Binotto and Hamilton over the weekend would certainly like people to believe Red Bull won last year's championship because of overspend, but at the moment not enough facts are known to say this with any certainty. For example, it could be the case that RBR spent less than Mercedes on R&D but spent more on utilities, transport and like-for-like salaries - if this is the case, then it is right to say that the overspend was not due to R&D and therefore gaining a competitive advantage.

As I said, we simply don't know enough facts of what the overspend value was and on what it was spent to be able to cast judgement, but there is just as much politics going on from Mercedes and Ferrari as there is from Red Bull. The other thing that certainly needs addressing is how Merc and Ferrari seemed to know Red Bull had been guilty of overspending before Red Bull themselves did with enough certainly to go public in the media with it - those submissions to the FIA should be confidential.

There are two facts. They have been found to have overspent. They themselves have said it was due (in part) to not including sick leave and catering in their accounts.

I would suggest everything else is a bit of Whataboutism. It's just a distraction and to be fair, rhetoric we have seen all over the internet from the RB / Max diehards. Not having a go, we just need to be aware and open about our own bias with these things.

The meme is a great visualisation of bias. How two people can see the same thing very differently.

 

[geo4chg]

There are two facts. They have been found to have overspent. They themselves have said it was due to not including sick leave and catering in their accounts.

I would suggest everything else is a bit of Whataboutism. It's just a distraction and to be fair, rhetoric we have seen all over the internet from the RB / Max diehards. Not having a go, we just need to be aware and open about our own bias with these things.

The meme is a great visualisation of bias. How two people can see the same thing very differently.

Just to be clear, I'm no fan of Red Bull or Max Verstappen.

There are a lot of people saying Max should be thrown out of the championship last year, I am saying it is impossible to know what the punishment should be when we still don't really know what the crime was.

If catering is the cause of the overspend - providing free lunch daily for their staff instead of asking them to pay for it - as has been reported but as far as I can tell not confirmed anywhere, then this is a perk of working at Red Bull but would have no material impact on their competitiveness or ability to bring upgrades to tracks etc, as has been alluded to by Hamilton etc. Obviously we don't know how Red Bull's catering bill compares to Mercedes etc, if Mercedes also offer free lunches daily and this is included within the budget cap then obviously Red Bull have indeed overspent in other areas. My point is there is no way anyone can say how this overspend impacted last year's championship.

 

[Nick🎢]

My point is there is no way anyone can say how this overspend impacted last year's championship.

As it stands - I'll agree with that.

 

[IanB]

A rollercoaster of emotions this weekend and throughout the race.

Whether you like RedBull or not, the contribution that Dietrich Mateschitz has made to F1 and other sports is undeniable. The junior development program is one of the reasons I like RedBull so much, and eight of the current drivers have directly benefitted.

The race is why I love F1 so much, everything happened in it, and the highlights are well worth a watch.


From: https://youtu.be/kSSwICJXGaY


Sainz was unlucky at the start, and I agree with what Martin said about the incident. It was George's fault, but Sainz could of done something about it.

Laitif has his usual spin, but it was Bottas who brought out the safety car this weekend.

I thought at one point we were going to have a three way fight for the lead. After Leclerc has made an easy pass on Perez earlier in the race, I was expecting both the Ferrari and RedBull to ease up to the back of Lewis (after a rare bad pitstop for Max), but it did not turn out that way. Was lots of fun watching Charles and Max go back at it, and then watching Max try to catch Lewis was tense. Some laps the gap did not close at all, and other laps it came down by half a second.

In the end, the RedBull in Max's hands was just to fast, and Max won by five seconds at the end. Lewis is desperate for that first win, trying anything and everything to get Max a penalty for track limits. Mercedes and Ferrari just seem to be so much harder on their tyres than the RedBull.

Vettel and Lando coming back through the field was great to watch as well. Alonso surviving a big shunt, and finishing seventh was great as well. I am not sure I would of been as diplomatic as Alonso was, but I guess Stroll is his team mate for next season. Silly move by Stroll, but several drivers drifted in to the middle when being passed, so he was not alone in his actions.

And the drama did not finish at the end of the race, with Haas protesting the results. I thought at the time during the race that Perez, Russell and Alonso were lucky to not get the Orange and Black flag we have seen earlier in the season for the Haas drivers. Even one of the "Eye Brow" winglets on Max's car appeared to come loose when passing Lewis at the end, and I was worried about that as well.


From: https://youtu.be/nVkRdqVQUAw


To make matters worse, the appeal by Haas was successful against Alonso but not Perez, not because something fell off the car, but because the stewards felt that it was not safe to drive the car with a missing mirror, which is why Perez was not punished. It all feels a bit more of a mess with the rules and race directors discretion. But the story didn't end there, Alpine are appealing against the punishment, claiming that Haas raised the protest to late, and therefore it can not be valid. Again, the rules are being fudged a bit on the fly to allow the Haas protest. It just feels like another mess for the FIA to sort out.

We should hopefully also get a resolution to the Red Bull overspend this week, with the overspend being $200,000, not the $10,000,000 we were hearing about several weeks ago. Link

And its already race week, with F1 heading off to Mexico. I really enjoy this race, the track and grandstand station are great.

 

[Nick🎢]

A rollercoaster of emotions this weekend and throughout the race.

Whether you like RedBull or not, the contribution that Dietrich Mateschitz has made to F1 and other sports is undeniable. The junior development program is one of the reasons I like RedBull so much, and eight of the current drivers have directly benefitted.

The race is why I love F1 so much, everything happened in it, and the highlights are well worth a watch.


From: https://youtu.be/kSSwICJXGaY


Sainz was unlucky at the start, and I agree with what Martin said about the incident. It was George's fault, but Sainz could of done something about it.

Laitif has his usual spin, but it was Bottas who brought out the safety car this weekend.

I thought at one point we were going to have a three way fight for the lead. After Leclerc has made an easy pass on Perez earlier in the race, I was expecting both the Ferrari and RedBull to ease up to the back of Lewis (after a rare bad pitstop for Max), but it did not turn out that way. Was lots of fun watching Charles and Max go back at it, and then watching Max try to catch Lewis was tense. Some laps the gap did not close at all, and other laps it came down by half a second.

In the end, the RedBull in Max's hands was just to fast, and Max won by five seconds at the end. Lewis is desperate for that first win, trying anything and everything to get Max a penalty for track limits. Mercedes and Ferrari just seem to be so much harder on their tyres than the RedBull.

Vettel and Lando coming back through the field was great to watch as well. Alonso surviving a big shunt, and finishing seventh was great as well. I am not sure I would of been as diplomatic as Alonso was, but I guess Stroll is his team mate for next season. Silly move by Stroll, but several drivers drifted in to the middle when being passed, so he was not alone in his actions.

And the drama did not finish at the end of the race, with Haas protesting the results. I thought at the time during the race that Perez, Russell and Alonso were lucky to not get the Orange and Black flag we have seen earlier in the season for the Haas drivers. Even one of the "Eye Brow" winglets on Max's car appeared to come loose when passing Lewis at the end, and I was worried about that as well.


From: https://youtu.be/nVkRdqVQUAw


To make matters worse, the appeal by Haas
We should hopefully also get a resolution to the Red Bull overspend this week, with the overspend being $200,000, not the $10,000,000 we were hearing about several weeks ago. Link

We need it from the FIA to be fair. With all due respect I wouldn't take Christian Horner's off the cuff remark in the media pen as fact. It's called the piranha club for a reason and he is as fishy as they come!

 

[IanB]

We need it from the FIA to be fair.

What ever punishment the FIA give RedBull, no one is going to call it fair.

They are all at it, pushing their own agenda's. The only numbers that we know have been ruled out are the ones that Toto was shouting about a few weeks ago. At the end of the day, having hero's and villains in sport makes it more exciting, but in a sporting context, the people you see as villains are probably still good people.

I really hope Christian sticks to his word, and makes sure there is no confidentiality clause when the FIA announce the punishment, and RedBull can talk about why the overspend has occurred. If RedBull are your Hero's, it will re-affirm the fact they were hard done by, if RedBull are your villains, nothing they say will change that.

Mercedes and Ferrari are very close now, and if they can close the gap to RedBull next season, we could be in for a fantastic season. More races like yesterday with three possible winners from different teams will be a treat, no matter which team your cheering. Hopefully these final three races (I don't count the sprint races as proper races) can deliver a little bit of what we can expect next season.

 

[Nick🎢]

I mean we need to hear the number from them. As you say, they are all "at it" and Christian cannot be taken as being truthful and accurate in this context because he has a game to play. We can judge when we see the official judgement.

 

[Alastair]

You can trust Horner about as far as you can throw him. Sadly, the day a single fair penalty is dished out to the FIA's darlings is the day pigs will fly.

 

[Jb85]

I've hated how smug Horner has been this season as he's had it all his way. Let's face it Newey is the genius in the team, and Max gets the best out of the car.

Stick Vettel Lewis or Alonso in the car and they would be as equally effective.

Lewis gave it his all, but ultimately as he said the Red Bull straight line speed gave them the win.

Here's hoping Merc, or Mclaren or even Alpine put up a proper fight next year. For all their speed Ferrari have been really poor.

 

[Danny]

Couldn't find this mentioned elsewhere, but there's a Formula 1 Arcade opening in London next month. Up to 60 motion simulators, drinks, and enhanced experiences are proposed for race weekends next year.

Looks great!