Furius Baco - The Debate

[Rob]

To say it is a bad ride and treat this statement as unquestionable fact ignores the views of thousands who love the ride. It does seem as though several people just can't seem to be able to accept that many, many people have positive opinions of Baco. It's this bit which I find infuriating.

The fact that Intamin have not sold another wing coaster model like Baco and have in fact gone and re-worked the concept somewhat for Skyrush does kinda prove it is a bad ride though. That does not stop people from liking it though. For example, I think that Colossus at Thorpe is a bad ride, however I do actually quite like it when I get a relatively smooth ride. Baco is poor, I did have one not so rough ride on it which I quite enjoyed, but it is a poor coaster. It should not vibrate the way that it does.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

Thing is though, it's not just me who likes it. There are some rides such as the old X:/No Way Out (before the re-furb) which were universally thought of as bad and there were just the odd one or two people who liked it, the queues for X:/NWO were always short, it wasn't popular and most reviews of it were poor. Whilst I accept that some did still like it, the vast majority of people didn't. I'd say there are alot more people who like Baco than there were who liked the old X:/, it always seems to get long queues, even when running at full capacity when the rest of the park's coaster capacity is reduced, and people speak of it highly and come off smiling. It does seem to be mainly enthusiasts who dislike it and even then, this dislike only seems to be limited to some groups, most of PBE love it for example. This I don't understand and probably never will!

 

[Alastair]

It does seem to be mainly enthusiasts who dislike it and even then, this dislike only seems to be limited to some groups, most of PBE love it for example. This I don't understand and probably never will!

Think of the cross-sections of enthusiasts on here in comparison with PBE though. PB is full of rough, out-of-the-seat, throw you around style coasters (Wild Mouse, Grand National, PMBO) whereas AT is known for smooth steelies. That's why Baco is liked more on there - because it provides an experience more akin to their favourite coasters at BPB (aside from the launch).

 

[Enter Valhalla]

I don't think that's fair to say. Furius Baco is nothing like anything at BPB.

 

[AstroDan]

It is fair.

A lot of the rides at Alton are criticised on PBE for being too smooth and 'boring'. Add roughness into a ride and you have that to focus on even if the layout is pants. For example, Furius Baco has no airtime, no intense lateral forces and very little by way of innovation in the layout. Aside from the launch speeds and roughness, I'm unsure what else people would like about it.

Baco is rough and hurts many people. Admittedly, some people like this. Several rides at Blackpool do this, such as Mouse, Dipper and Infusion. The sort of person who loves Baco probably finds the likes of Storm Runner rubbish.

I once read of someone on there preferring Infusion to either of the B&M Inverts in the UK. Presumably they like it rough...

That said, I rate Mouse highly myself.

 

[James]

Mouse is great. Although you do expect to be thrown around on that. If it weren't rough I would be disappointed.

I think enthusiast knowledge should also be taken into account. I'm not sure about PBE, although the vast majority of members on here have been to parks around Europe and around the world so have a general idea of what makes a good or bad roller coaster. Compared to other forums I've been on this site seems to have the most people that have a far greater knowledge on what there is to offer around the world.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

Think of the cross-sections of enthusiasts on here in comparison with PBE though. PB is full of rough, out-of-the-seat, throw you around style coasters (Wild Mouse, Grand National, PMBO) whereas AT is known for smooth steelies. That's why Baco is liked more on there - because it provides an experience more akin to their favourite coasters at BPB (aside from the launch).

You're generalising greatly here. You have no evidence to support your claim that there is a wider cross section of enthusiasts on here than on PBE.

Also your argument makes no sense. You're basically saying that PBE forum memebers only like Baco cause it's rough and that this is why people on here don't like it. This is not the case. People on here also say it has a poor layout and that the launch is not intense enough. I disagree with both of these opinions by the way. However if this was the case, PBE people would take this into account. They aren't going to like a coaster purely because it's rough. If they did they'd have thought that Corkscrew was the best thing ever. Funnily enough they didn't. They like Furius Baco for other reasons and the general feeling on PBE is one of great positivity towards Baco, a view which I share with them.

It is fair.

A lot of the rides at Alton are criticised on PBE for being too smooth and 'boring'. Add roughness into a ride and you have that to focus on even if the layout is pants. For example, Furius Baco has no airtime, no intense lateral forces and very little by way of innovation in the layout. Aside from the launch speeds and roughness, I'm unsure what else people would like about it.

Well personally I enjoy the intensity and constant acceleration of the ride, unlike many other launch coasters which slow down alot towards the end, not to mention how much I enjoy the pre-show and general quality theming of the ride and surrounding areas.

Again, I don't think it's fair to say that people enjoy a coaster purely because it's rough. Why would they? The acceleration throughout the ride as well as the launch are what make Baco a great ride for many people. The roughness is just a minor inconvenience, which isn't even that bad if you sit on the front row or inside seats.

I think enthusiast knowledge should also be taken into account. I'm not sure about PBE, although the vast majority of members on here have been to parks around Europe and around the world so have a general idea of what makes a good or bad roller coaster. Compared to other forums I've been on this site seems to have the most people that have a far greater knowledge on what there is to offer around the world.

Well I don't know if this is true of PBE and wouldn't like to comment, but I really don't agree with the opinion that those who've been on more coasters abroad have a more valid opinion than those who haven't. And it also isn't true in the case of Baco. I've ridden hundreds of coasters in the UK, Europe and America but still rate Furius Baco as one of my favourite coasters in the world. It's easily my favourite in Europe, although Wodan is a close second, and I have many other coasters to compare it to.

Like I keep saying I just don't get why people on here can't accept that some people enjoy this ride and can't accept the reasons why some people like it. To say things like "people like it cause it's rough" or "people only like it cause they haven't been on many other coasters" or even "people mistake the roughness for intensity" simply aren't true.

 

[AstroDan]

Out of interest, have you done iSpeed? EGF? Balder?

I am interested that you actually think Baco the best ride in Europe. Even you like it, that's some accolade.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

I haven't been on any of those which you listed above but I'm not going to sit on here being a coaster snob thinking that people who've been on less coasters than me somehow know less and are less entitled to comment. If people enjoy rides they enjoy them, regardless of how many of how few other coasters they have been on.

Out of interest why did you decide to pick those specific coasters to ask me? Is it because you read my previous posts and thought that I hadn't been on them so decided to use them as a little dig against me/ opportunity to brag about your superior coaster experience? I've not heard many people single them out as the best coasters in Europe. I can only presume therefore that you used them as an example because you thought I hadn't been on them. From what I've read, generally people seem to rate Stealth and Blue Fire as the best launch coasters in Europe, although I am the first to admit that this may not be the case.

 

[AstroDan]

Based on the acclaimed Mitch Hawker Rollercoaster Poll;

iSpeed is regarded as the best launch coaster in Europe.

EGF is regarded as the best coaster in Europe overall and is often #1 in the world.

Balder is consistently the best voted Woodie in Europe.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree with the above entirely, however.

I chose them as you said Baco was the best coaster in Europe and I wanted to guage if you preferred it to any of the above 3 Intamin coasters.

It truly baffles me that you rate Baco as your #1 in Europe. It's one thing rating it highly, but better than some of what Europe offers seems insane to me but hey, you've said why you love it so...

 

[Enter Valhalla]

Based on the acclaimed Mitch Hawker Rollercoaster Poll;

iSpeed is regarded as the best launch coaster in Europe.

EGF is regarded as the best coaster in Europe overall and is often #1 in the world.

Balder is consistently the best voted Woodie in Europe.

I chose them as you said Baco was the best coaster in Europe and I wanted to guage if you preferred it to any of the above 3 Intamin coasters.

With all due respect Dan, you've actually mis-read and misunderstood everything I've been trying to say in this thread.

I never once said that Baco was the BEST coaster in Europe. I said it was my favourite in Europe and that's the point that I'm trying to make.

Someone's opinion on a coaster, Baco or otherwise, is entirely subjective. If you ennjoy a coaster you enjoy it. Because I'm not a sheep and becasue presumably nobody else on here is a sheep, which coaster you enjoy the most shouldn't be the one which is rated as the best. Furthermore if you enjoy a coaster no amount of polls, votes etc. should make you change that opinion. If you enjoy it you enjoy it. I went on Baco when it first opened in 2007 before I'd read any reviews or polls and I loved it. Since then I have ridden it in 2009, and every year since 2011 and I still love it. Why should I change my opinions because the Mitch Hawker polls rates it poorly or because other enthusiasts have given it bad reviews?

I'm not trying to change anyone else's opinions or drum up support for the ride, nor am I saying it's the BEST, I'm saying it's my favourite. And the point that I'm making is that I find it SO frustrating that people can't accept that it's my favourite and keep coming at me with their own opinions or opinions of their friends or other enthusiasts who don't like it.

Whatever you told me was your favourite coaster, even if it was something which I considered really poor, I would still respect that opinion and not come on here and say "you're wrong" or "the ride is rubbish", people's opinions on coasters are subjective.

Dan, you yourself have even said that you don't necessarily agree with those Mitch Hawker results, which proves my point. If you like something you like it, you don't stop liking it because other people don't like it, nor do you start liking something because it's rated highly by polls or by other enthusiasts.

You get me?

 

[AstroDan]

I don't agree entirely either, but by and large, the Hawker poll is the best indication we have of what enthusiasts like/dislike around the world.

My own personal top 10 is generally made up of rollercoasters which sit somewhere in the top 50 of the Hawker Steel Poll/ top 30 Wood Poll.

Obviously we aren't robots, but Furius Baco is very low down on the poll (116), thus most enthusiasts don't rate it - in head to heads (how the poll works) it performs fairly poorly aside from against one or two other Intamin launches.

If I said Goudurix was my #1 steel coaster, I would fully expect to be challenged.

However, I do agree that I rate Baco lower than most enthusiasts. But it's generally not rated very highly at all.

Oh, and ride iSpeed

 

[Enter Valhalla]

I don't agree entirely either, but by and large, the Hawker poll is the best indication we have of what enthusiasts like/dislike around the world.

My own personal top 10 is generally made up of rollercoasters which sit somewhere in the top 50 of the Hawker Steel Poll/ top 30 Wood Poll.

Obviously we aren't robots, but Furius Baco is very low down on the poll, thus most enthusiasts don't rate it. In head to heads (how the poll works) it performs poorly.

If I said Goudurix was my #1 steel coaster, I would fully expect to be ridiculed.

So are you saying that I, and others, shouldn't enjoy Baco or rate it highly just because it's low down the poll and most enthusiasts don't like it?

Are you saying, in the same vein, that if a film doesn't recieve good reviews from critics it can't be your favourite film? :/

 

[AstroDan]

I haven't said anywhere that your opinion is invalid. But, you are posting on a forum where, the majority of members who I know that have been on this rollercoaster, do not like it. As I also said, the general enthusiast consensus is not particularly favourable towards Furius Baco. I am sure there are forums where the ride is adored, celebrated, loved. For whatever reasons, they are reasons and whilst I think the layout is rubbish, boring etc. etc. - clearly, you think the layout is fantastic, exciting etc. etc.

If it's your favourite rollercoaster in Europe, that's your own view - no matter how ridiculous that seems to me. At no stage have I said this view is invalid, I have merely stated how I cannot fathom out how you have reached it.

There are always anomalies within polls, opinions and everything else. No doubt, Furius Baco would be even lower down in the poll if it wasn't for people like you, who rate it highly.

As for films, I don't tend to have much regard for professional criticism. Just like how the rollercoaster rankings of the Golden Ticket Awards I tend to ignore, because of the way the results are correlated.

Trust me, there's not many rides I have ever entered into such debate over during my life on TTF and TST; but with Furius Baco, it's one I am prepared to make because my personal view is that it's diabolical.

 

[James]

Well I don't know if this is true of PBE and wouldn't like to comment, but I really don't agree with the opinion that those who've been on more coasters abroad have a more valid opinion than those who haven't. And it also isn't true in the case of Baco. I've ridden hundreds of coasters in the UK, Europe and America but still rate Furius Baco as one of my favourite coasters in the world. It's easily my favourite in Europe, although Wodan is a close second, and I have many other coasters to compare it to.

I do not know if it's true of PBE either. I was merely stating that in the wider circle of enthusiasts there are some who have more experience like others and therefore 'know' what is good, what is bad and what makes a 'good' roller coaster. Obviously between those lines you have opinions and interests that change this general outlook. It's like any other generalisation (like car driver experience or life experience for example), generally if you have more experience you're assumed to have a greater knowledge and understanding. Doesn't stop those with less experience having an opinion of course, although it's easier to look at it generally instead of getting picky with 3 or 4 people on a forum (who form a very small part of the countless amount of enthusiasts out there).

No one on here seems to be stating it as fact that it's a 'bad' ride (well, on these last few pages where it has turned into a debate). The general opinion on this forum is that it is not that enjoyable. Opinion, not fact. If you like it then fair enough (I haven't said anything in my comments that implies I "can't accept that some people enjoy this ride"). We all have different tastes at the end of the day. I personally don't judge anyone who likes Baco. If you do then you do. Just enjoy what you like about it.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

To be fair I'm not saying that you personally said my opinion was invalid, I am trying to make the point that there are many who like it and rate it highly. The very fact that this debate has gone on so long would suggest to me that people don't seem to want to accept that I like the ride because whenever I've explained my viewpoint, people keep coming back at me with reasons why I shouldn't like it. It also annoys me that people have said that roughnes is the only feature that the ride has going for it and that people only like it becasue they haven't been on enough coasters to compare it with. These statements are simply not valid. If you look at the Hawker poll, Baco is rated below many other steel coasters which I have ridden yet I still prefer it so lack of coaster experience is not a valid argument. It's also not fair to say that people such as PBE only enjoy the roughness, I enjoy the lauch, the continued high speeds and the all round intensity, roughness barely even comes into it.

It's these arguments which I take issue with.

Well I don't know if this is true of PBE and wouldn't like to comment, but I really don't agree with the opinion that those who've been on more coasters abroad have a more valid opinion than those who haven't. And it also isn't true in the case of Baco. I've ridden hundreds of coasters in the UK, Europe and America but still rate Furius Baco as one of my favourite coasters in the world. It's easily my favourite in Europe, although Wodan is a close second, and I have many other coasters to compare it to.

I do not know if it's true of PBE either. I was merely stating that in the wider circle of enthusiasts there are some who have more experience like others and therefore 'know' what is good, what is bad and what makes a 'good' roller coaster. Obviously between those lines you have opinions and interests that change this general outlook. It's like any other generalisation (like car driver experience or life experience for example), generally if you have more experience you're assumed to have a greater knowledge and understanding. Doesn't stop those with less experience having an opinion of course, although it's easier to look at it generally instead of getting picky with 3 or 4 people on a forum (who form a very small part of the countless amount of enthusiasts out there).

I think that this argument is silly. What even is a 'good' roller coaster? It's down to opinion surely which is why some people prefer wood and some prefer steel. Like I keep saying it simply isn't true that people who like Baco are people who've ridden fewer coasters. Do you think I have less coaster knowledge than everyone who dislikes Baco? Like I said above, if this was the case then I would have had to have not ridden every single steel coaster which is above Baco on the Mitch Hawker poll. The fact of the matter is that I have riden many of the more highly rated coasters but personally I prefer aco to them. No amount of polls and statistics has, or ever will, stop me from enjoying the ride. However, I may stumble across a coaster somewhere in Europe which I enjoy more than Baco, who knows, I hope I do. If I do it could be high or the Hawker poll or it could be low. If I enjoy it, I enjoy it.

 

[James]

Did you actually read my post? You seem to just be rolling your eyes across posts then writing what the hell you want ignoring any posts that make valid sense.

---

I think that this argument is silly.

Just as silly as any other generalisation that you find in all walks of life.

What even is a 'good' roller coaster?

You tell me.

It's down to opinion surely which is why some people prefer wood and some prefer steel.

Yep. Just like I said:

Obviously between those lines you have opinions and interests that change this general outlook.

Like I keep saying it simply isn't true that people who like Baco are people who've ridden fewer coasters.

I agree. Look at my quote above.

Do you think I have less coaster knowledge than everyone who dislikes Baco?

Generally yes. Although no I do not. I don't know you, who you are, where you've been, how many hours you look at roller coasters and POV videos on YouTube. Like I said in the quote further up - there are opinions within the generalisation. You have the opinion that is just as valid as any other.

Like I said above, if this was the case then I would have had to have not ridden every single steel coaster which is above Baco on the Mitch Hawker poll. The fact of the matter is that I have riden many of the more highly rated coasters but personally I prefer aco to them.

That's nice. You have an opinion, fab.

No amount of polls and statistics has, or ever will, stop me from enjoying the ride.

I never said they would.

However, I may stumble across a coaster somewhere in Europe which I enjoy more than Baco, who knows, I hope I do. If I do it could be high or the Hawker poll or it could be low. If I enjoy it, I enjoy it.

If you do then you do. You may find a new ride you enjoy just as much.

---

I'm sorry but this topic has become ridiculous.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

Having re-read your earlier post twice, I would say I answered the points you raised and don't see what point you're trying to make now.

I agree that this debate has got ridiculous, but I simply can't accept that people who like Baco are people who've not ridden enough coasters. If that was the case, I would have to have not ridden any of the coasters which the Mitch Hawker poll rates more highly. I have however been on many of them and still put Baco ahead of them, as do many other people. Why people can't accept that I have that personal opinion is beyond me!

 

[AstroDan]

Generally, there isn't an air of 'I don't accept you opinion' on this topic - there are just people with polarised viewpoints, therefore there is some heavy disagreement.

What needs to be accepted however, is that much like The Ultimate at Lightwater Valley - Furius Baco is a ride which massively divides opinion. There is no middle ground.

There are lovers, or there are haters.

And for that reason, such rides will spark debate for years to come.

 

[Enter Valhalla]

Well yes, this does feel like a somewhat never ending debate which has already gone on forever.