Game of Thrones

Discussion in 'Box Office' started by LiamC, 1st Apr 2013.

  1. D4n

    D4n TowersStreet Member

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    I agree that I think it played out really well, albeit this season as a whole has been far too rushed and therefore the arc has felt a little less natural than it should have done.

    Anyone who realistically didn't expect the Mad Queen story arc to play out can't have been watching the show. It's been hinted at constantly and it has only been a serious of wise advisors (Jorah, Tyrion, Varys) who have kept her from acting as her instincts dictate. I agree with the above that the loss of them / mistrust of them is what ultimately caused her to go off the rails. Without their support it would have happened much sooner.
     
  2. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    I read a good article earlier that Season 8 should have ended with the Battle of Winterfell, including much more build up as the army of the dead got closer. And then there should have been a Season 9 that ended where Season 8 is going to end, with much more build up to the Battle of Kings Landing showing more of Dany going mad/taking joy from burning people and show more of Cersie and Euron.

    Alas, I fear that the TV writers did not feel comfortable writing the filler material and instead have focussed on the big events. I am sure that the books will fill many of the gaps (if GRRRRRRRRRRRR doesn't die before they're finished).
     
  3. Lurker

    Lurker TowersStreet Member

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    You also have to think about the other reason Dany turned 'mad'. She wanted the love of the people, which she couldn't get even by helping in the war for the living. Jon got that love, Jon had a better birthright.

    Whilst sitting on the tower listening to the bells ring, I assume one thing was crossing her mind. Am I now the queen of Westeros? And it's fairly safe to say that it wasn't clear cut. So she decided to cement her rule in enough fear for a life time. She showed the utter devestation that she could bring to anyone who dared to go against her.

    Nobody in the right mind would dare question her rule now, and in her mind she has gotten what was always hers, and an opportunity to rebuild a realm that prospers and reform the nation in her vision. Kill a city now, save a country later.

    I don't think she was mad, I think she was angry and calculating. Nothing suggests she did what she did for any reasons other than to make her claim solid. Maybe a hint of revenge and other emotions, but I don't think she's crazy.
     
  4. Tim

    Tim TowersStreet Member

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    As I said before I don't have a problem with the mad queen story arc... but it was executed poorly. I can explain why when I have chance.
     
  5. Tim

    Tim TowersStreet Member

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    Ok, sorry for the double post, here is my explanation.

    The main reason I've not been enjoying season 8 is that there's no consistency in the way the story is told. This was very much apparent in this episode for the reasons I'll give below:

    1. Varys was found out way too easily. Remember that this character was the Master of Whisperer, an expert at getting away with pulling all the right stings. He had a great scene with Tyrion last episode and I was really looking forward to seeing what he would do. But no the episode starts and everyone immediate knows he's a traitor and he's dead. What a waste. Now I'm told that the scene with him talking to the young girl was meant to imply he'd been trying to poison Daenerys. If that is the case I'll at least concede they did something with his character, but they really should have made this clearer as most the people I've talked to didn't have this impression. Why not show the girl actually tampering with her food?
    2. The Scorpions are completely inconsistent. When they were introduced in season 7 the show made a very clear point of showing that these weapons while technically able to kill a dragon were pretty much useless. Until last episode where they were suddenly able to shoot a dragon out of the sky! At the time I gave them the benefit of the doubt as it was an ambush and it wasn't just the one. Maybe they are more effective in numbers. But this episode they were back to being useless as ever! So are these weapons a threat or not?
    3. The Dothraki and Unsullied are dead. Did I miss something in Episode 3? Because I'm sure I saw a (admitted stunning) scene in which all the Dothraki were wiped out. Later in that episode the Unsullied were almost wiped out as well along with most of the northern armies. So how come a full battalion of them rock up in Kings Landing? If you kill characters off they have to stay dead, that applies to extras just as much as the main cast. If you can magically summon an army from nowhere and Dragons can go from easy targets to completely immune inbetween episodes then what tension is there?
    4. A minor point but it goes with the last, why introduce the Golden Company this late in the game just to kill them off in 30 seconds?
    5. Daenerys going mad. As I said before, I don't mind the mad queen story line... but they already did it much better. Cersei, Series 6 Episode 10. That's how you go mad queen! You push a character to a point of desperation and no hope.
      Daenery had no reason to go mad. She'd just won! She'd taken Kings Landing with very little bloodshed, the enemy had surrendered and the civilians were calling out for mercy. She could have gone mad at any other point in the episode and I might have accepted it, but that was not the right time.
      On the subject of mad queens:
    6. Cersei. She just stands there! This was her final episode and all she did was stand there watching and pathetically cry at the end. What a waste of an amazing actress.

      I think I'll leave it there for now. There's a lot I want to say about Jamie's flip flopping personality too but it's such a mess I can't even work out why.
     
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  6. Rojo

    Rojo TowersStreet Member

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    Someone made a great thread on Reddit that this episode is clearly the ending GRRM outlined and might be the book ending(ish) if it's ever finished.

    The route and pacing the characters have taken in TV show vs the book will be hugely different. It's probably why this season feels like someone angrily mashing square playdo through a circular hole to make things fit.

    Well one to go and then it's time to start watching the expanse, heard that's decent.
     
  7. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    I agree to an extent about the consistency and the overall pacing is definitely off. As I said previously, it seems that the TV series is just focussing on the major events whereas the books will flesh all of that out and give much more story inbetween the major events. I don't think Dan and David are overly confident of writing too much more character backstory without the help of Martin, possibily because they worry about getting it wrong.

    To respond to your points:
    1. I agree, but Tyrion did snitch on him and Dany probably had people watching his every move. He was always a goner as soon as Dany found out.
    2. The Scorpions are definitely inconsistent however they were ungraded between Season 7 and 8 to become larger and more powerful, although I am not sure this was made clear on-screen (it was explained in one of the Game Revealed videos). The only explanation that I can think of for them being effective in Episode 4 yet useless in Episode 5 is that Dany was not expecting the ambush in 4 but by 5 she knew where they all were and the best way to go about destroying them.
    3. Most of them are dead but not all of them. We did see some of the Dothraki ride back after most of them had been wiped out, although it does look like they might have magiced up a few more. I don't think it was overly clear how many of the Unsullied died in Episode 3. They suggested in Episode 4 that half of the allied forces had been lost at Winterfell.
    4. It does seem pointless, but it was amusing to see them be so useless!
    5. I think more character development would have helped this but I think she just felt so alone and betrayed that she wanted to show her true power in the most ruthless of ways. People now know what she will do if they disobey her and how can they stop a dragon?
    6. I thought it was quite a fitting ending for Cersei. Trapped, helpless, fearful. Paying for all of her previous actions; she could have avoided this but chose not to.
    And with Jamie, yes he has been changing his personality a lot. I think he is a very conflicted person who when it mattered the most always cared for Cersei more than anyone else. No matter what happened, good or bad, he could not stop loving her.
     
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  8. Lurker

    Lurker TowersStreet Member

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    Regarding the scorpions, Dany was flying low and at speed, so it's harder to aim than something in the sky, which appears to move slower, and is easier to aim at.

    I saw clearly the upgraded scorpions, bigger and with the large X at the front. So the difference between S7 and S8 was fine.

    However they were too weak in E5, they should have gotten close more, and maybe even clipped drogon. There was too big of a difference between E4 and E5.

    Also Cersi's planning of the scorpions was awful if she'd known anything about dragons. Having them all in a line is the worst possible formation. Having them spread around the city would've been an effective way to make breaking them all harder, and getting a clear shot of a dragon easier.

    It was fantastic to me to see Cersi, the ever confident and powerful queen break. She was scared, she'd lost all of her protectors. She'd lost everything she loved and she died begging not to die. Vunerable Cersi was exactly what I wanted. She was fierce, but she'd set her self up for failure. Everything Tywin built she'd traded away, until all she had left was Frankenstein and his monster.
     
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  9. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    So, what did everyone make of the Game of Thrones finale? It seems to have received a mixed reaction however I rather enjoyed it and was satisfied with the ending.

    Dany had to die for what she did, and although I did not see Bran becoming king it did make sense.

    They also managed to tie up most characters story arcs. I particularly liked Jon's; he ended up where we first saw him and by going to live beyond the wall he is probably in the only place he could ever consider to be his true home. I also liked how the show ended in the same location where it begun at the start of Series 1 Episode 1.

    Yes some bits still felt a little rushed but overall it was a good ending. And I don't get why so many people are throwing a hissy fit just because their favourite character did not end up on the Throne!
     
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  10. IanSR

    IanSR TowersStreet Member

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    The whole lot felt rushed, especially noticeable if like me you'd binged watched the entire show over three weeks and timed it up to watching episode 5 followed immediately by 6 live.

    It would have been far better had this storyline been stretched out over the 30 episodes HBO wanted.
     
  11. Ryan B

    Ryan B TowersStreet Member

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    Good ending for me, but they tried to make dany into the villain which I wasn't a fan of. Seemed very forced to me and she deserved the throne. Can't help but feel sympathetic to her character because if you look back to season 7 ep 6 to the finale (predict about 2 months westeros time)
    99% of the things she did were good. Helped them with walkers, which cost her Viserion, saved the North pretty much which cost her Jorah, and in her original plan for Kings Landing which was relatively harmless to the civilians lost Rhaegal, Missandei, the trust of Varys.
    At dragonstone discovered she'd been betrayed by Jon, then Sansa, then Tyrion and Varys. Most likely discovered Varys tried to poison her.
    At list point what characters did she still have affection for? Jon. Jon rejected her, and pushed her away.
    Then came battle of Kings Landing, the bells rang and she seemed to stop but realised she had nothing left, no people that she cared for cared for her anymore really.
    For the finale, if Jon had sided with her she would not have gone killing lots of innocents, he was the thing that kept her sane only for him to betray her anyway.

    Part of me wonders whether Bran was always playing the Game of Thrones, because it was his actions that led to him getting the throne. If bran doesn't tell anyone about Jon's heritage, Jon never finds out. If Jon never finds out he stays with Dany, Dany doesn't go mad, therefore she never pays with her life and Jon/Dany would've ruled. It's not a coincidence someone with his powers manages to manipulate the story to get himself to the throne.
    The thing that sent Dany mad was being abandoned by the one person she truly loved, and then being betrayed by that person. If she had been on the throne for longer, and made more bad decisions it would've been acceptable.
    As it stands, she never got to sit on the throne, and she never got the chance to prove she was a good ruler because her mind wouldn't be straight at that point, she was still mourning.
    Only saving grace for her character is that her death broke the wheel. It left westeros with no heir, no targaryen, and therefore they had to go a different route.
     
    Last edited: 21st May 2019
  12. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    I know what you mean, but ultimately she killed more innocent people than all of the other supposed villians combined, and in Game of Thrones there are always consequences for your actions. As you say, her death allowed for the wheel to be truly broken which is what she really wanted.
     
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  13. Lurker

    Lurker TowersStreet Member

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    She didn't even show remorse. I was expecting a bit of a downward spiral of depression following what she did, but she just took a power trip. I believe she was justified in burning the red keep to the ground (she should have done it immediately upon getting to Westeros). Killing the innocents was to incite fear, and in terms of war strategies was probably the right move for her. She'd lost every friend and advisor, and her mistake was believing that Jon would still support her. It's clearly not in Jons character to do so, he's always had his people's lives in mind. Drogon knew what corrupted Dany.
     
  14. bluesonichd

    bluesonichd TowersStreet Member

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    Unless I missed something. How did they find out John killed Dany. It’s not like the dragon talked. He could have gotten away with it.
    Sloppy sloppy story writing
     
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  15. Rob

    Rob TS Forum Team Team Member

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    He probably got caught by that pool of blood. Or with it being Jon, he probably confessed his sins thinking he'd get away with it.
     
  16. Lurker

    Lurker TowersStreet Member

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    He was the only person there when she died. he then presumably had some blood on him. Doesn't seem too hard to deduce.

    It then seems as though greyworm was a bit calculating and decided that he was a valuable prisoner, given the castle with ruined defences and presumably little un-spoilt food would be extremely hard to hold onto in any sort of siege. This is also why tyrion wasn't really a prisoner when the council arrived. One threat about the men outside from sansa and he knew he was safe.
     
  17. Error

    Error TowersStreet Member

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    2 scenes out of this episode was good...only 2.

    Drogon emerging from the snow was bloody cool.
    Jon petting the damn wolf.

    That's it.
    Still MANY things unanswered or explained.

    Stupid, badly written episode that was rushed due to them 2 idiots getting bored with this program and having Star Wars on their mind. Like Star Wars is any good anymore.

    I had more of an emotional grip to the damn CGI animals (Drogon/Ghost) than anybody living.

    Absolutely gutted.
     
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  18. Tim

    Tim TowersStreet Member

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    Yeah I've finally got around to watching it. It was ok.

    I don't get why Jon ended up back at the wall. Firstly the White Walkers are dead so why is the nights watch even a thing? Secondly it was Grey Worm that banished him but he immediately runs off after... so who would care if Jon just came back?
    Oh wait, I know why, it's so Jon could say goodbye to the other Starks (Lord of the Rings style), and to bring the show full circle I guess?

    Either way they made the best of what they had I guess.
     
  19. Error

    Error TowersStreet Member

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    I'm sure I read somewhere they had the option from HBO to have it as a 10 episode season.
     
  20. Tim

    Tim TowersStreet Member

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    I should have been clearer. They did the best they could based on the mess of a plot that was left after the other 5 episodes. Most of the issues I had with this one were only in the context of "x plot point doesn't make sense because of y decision earlier in the series" but from my perspective as a viewer that would have been an issue even if this episode was absolut gold.

    I'm sure if the whole season was rewritten the show could of had a fantastic ending. Instead we got something that felt like D&D were phoning it in just to be done with the show.

    I'm glad those who liked it did but the reviews are mixed for a reason and it's not because of who lived or died. I 100% believe they could have kept all the same plot twists but if executed properly we'd have all been blown away by how good the show was.
     

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