Hotels General Discussion

[jon81uk]

Are there hotels on site at Warwick? Just of Alton is a resort, then I would expect staying in a hotel to have a resort experience. Maybe that’s just me perhaps but there is nothing to attract the GP or those without older children/no children to stay over this Christmas (and nothing for NYE)

Warwick Castle has had glamping and woodland lodge accommodation for at least 5-8 years now and opened a hotel as well this summer. I doubt they would be interested in attracting those who are not interested in the castle. Their accommodation is very much designed for families visiting the attraction, although they do also have some suites within the actual castle.

 

[GaryH]

Thanks - didn’t realise it had hotel rooms. Looks nice - but wouldn’t attract me to go there for Xmas experience.

Perhaps Merlin are purposely trying to move guests to their other attractions at certain times of the year rather than some of their attractions offering the same thing (eg Xmas lights trail)

 

[Blackrock]

Why would Alton Towers be concerned with Warwick Castle events and vice Versa, they may be owned by the same parent company but they’re ultimately focusing upon themselves. They’ll both have their own goals, targets, events etc.

Worrying about what a competitor (and they are a competitor though owned by the same group) is doing 40 miles away shouldn’t be any of their concern.

If they’re doing a light show then it’s ultimately up to the other party to go one better, round and round we go. Healthy competition even within the same group is a positive thing.

So I’d assume Alton doesn’t do their light show for their own reasons, whatever they may be

 

[venny]

It’s just people falliing over backwards attempting to defend the self-evident cuts to the Alton Towers offering. It’s curious that Chessington is only about 15 minutes further a drive from Warwick Castle than Alton Towers is, and yet they don’t seem to have the same concerns about cannibalising business.

For some, there’s always an excuse to grasp for.

 

[jon81uk]

It’s just people falliing over backwards attempting to defend the self-evident cuts to the Alton Towers offering. It’s curious that Chessington is only about 15 minutes further a drive from Warwick Castle than Alton Towers is, and yet they don’t seem to have the same concerns about cannibalising business.

I don't see it as cuts. If you compare this years offering to ten years ago, its pretty much the same. They haven't cut anything.
They tried something new for a couple of years and I assume they think it didn't really work.

Not looking for excuses or trying to defend for no reason, but it is self-evident the Santa's Sleepover event is what made AT money in the past so that is where they are putting their focus. They tried a market and it didn't work, Lightopia tried a light walk and it didn't work.
Maybe if sales of the Sleepover go downhill they will see what is needed to plus that event and keep people coming back.

 

[James]

Alton Towers could do lots of things to differentiate themselves from Warwick. A light trail in the gardens would not make them a competitor to Warwick. I don't buy that argument/theory.

There's a lot of potential for a winter event at Towers, and it did seem like they started trying until Lightopia went bust. Instead of being brave and thinking, 'Let's try our own thing,' they instead decided to stick to the Santa Sleepovers, which have always ticked along with sales (although not this year if we're to judge the amount of pushing on social media).

It's the same old issue. Unless they are guaranteed a return on investment or can hit those targets set by the Merlin overlords, they will not (can not?) take any risks since budgets are tight. Maybe they will review next year if the Santa Sleepover sales are down, although I would guess their answer will be to make cuts to winter next year.

 

[Blackrock]

I find it bizarre that they haven’t stuck with the whole lights thing, they’re very popular and people travel for them. Even outside of the whole Christmas lights events Liverpool run their river of lights festival in October and that’s always extremely popular.

It’s all very instagramable if they want to put the effort in.

I’d like them to try their Christmas markets again but go all in, fake snow the lot. Projection mapping on the towers, a light trail in the gardens with some backstory or something, temporary ice skating rink, panto on the lawns or in a tent.

 

[jon81uk]

I’d like them to try their Christmas markets again but go all in, fake snow the lot. Projection mapping on the towers, a light trail in the gardens with some backstory or something, temporary ice skating rink, panto on the lawns or in a tent.

How much would you be willing to pay for that? I’d expect it to be over £20 a ticket, plus more for rides and another £15 for ice skating. Are there enough people willing to pay that when there are other more easily accessible locations?

 

[Blackrock]

How much would you be willing to pay for that? I’d expect it to be over £20 a ticket, plus more for rides and another £15 for ice skating. Are there enough people willing to pay that when there are other more easily accessible locations?

Well Trentham down the road charges £20 per ticket for far less than what Alton could offer so I don’t see why people wouldn’t pay more. Especially those local enough to do both/choose one.

From what I’ve read of this years people don’t even think that’s worth £20 but they’ll pay it because the kids enjoy it.

They don’t need 10/20K people on park, it’s surely just a way to drive up occupancy rates within the hotels over the Christmas period.

Trentham is lovely but surroundings wise it can’t really compete with Alton Towers if they wanted to out the effort in.

 

[GooseOnTheLoose]

It’s just people falliing over backwards attempting to defend the self-evident cuts to the Alton Towers offering. It’s curious that Chessington is only about 15 minutes further a drive from Warwick Castle than Alton Towers is, and yet they don’t seem to have the same concerns about cannibalising business.

For some, there’s always an excuse to grasp for.

Want to make this absolutely clear, there is no excuse for Alton Towers to not have a decent Christmas offering, if they wanted to. No defending going on here.

There is absolutely not the business case to offer the exact same offering as the sister attraction 40ish miles away.

 

[Blackrock]

40 miles isn’t exactly close though is it. Not for an event that’s a few hours long at best.

Alton’s catchment area for an event like this is going to be similar to what Warwick’s is and I’m next to Alton towers and for me Warwick is a 90 minute drive, I wouldn’t drive that.

But people under an hour (of which there’s many) would potentially drive to an event at either place. I don’t see how they’d be encroaching on each other at all.

Trentham for me is a 40 minute drive, I’d drive that far. An event like this will always be more local unless you’re actually shelling out the cash and staying overnight. And ultimately that should be their number one aim, to fill the rooms.

 

[jon81uk]

They don’t need 10/20K people on park,

Depending on how much they spend, they might need significant attendance.
Walsall Arboretum used to have illuminations every autumn but they scrapped them 15 years ago due to falling guest numbers, used to get 250k over the six weeks in the 90s and it dropped to 160k and the council was losing £150k putting on the event. If you spend big on an event and the people don’t show up in high enough numbers you’ll lose money, hence Lightopia going bust.

Do I think they should offer a small scale version for hotel guests only? Probably yes. Is it viable to try doing a massive event, probably not given other places are easier to get to.

 

[Matt.GC]

In fairness St Mowden (Blackstone) are also trying to sell Trentham Gardens. They’ve done amazing things with it but there were huge plans for it when they first took it over, none of those have been realised either.

But obviously their light trail events etc are always sell outs, same with their concerts.

They do have something in common with Towers though, the roads can’t cope at either location so there’s that.

I had no idea St Modwen (owned by Blackstone) owned Trentham!

I've just bought a house off them last month. One of the strangest businesses I've ever had dealings with. Desperate to sell me an expensive house, but refusing to negotiate. Almost like they'd baked a profit margin into their model, and were completely ignorant toward things not going to plan.

I managed to get some blood out of the stone in the end, but should really have walked away. Beautiful house and had it professionally snagged. Even the snagger said it's one of the best he's seen, real high quality and a very small list. But whilst your bog standard Persimmons of this world will cut corners and then budget for the fallout (I bought 2 new builds off them, and although their houses are a bit shoddy, you just walk up to the site manager he'll send some people round to do pretty much whatever you want), getting to snagging done is like pulling teeth.

They've designed and built these beautiful houses, and put a lot of thought into the design of the area alongside the council. No dodgy stuff here. It's an old RAF base and they've made it a fantastic place to live. But they seem so bad at business, they're furiously selling off land to other developers because their weird business practices are preventing them from getting a good return. They're doing all this during a housing crisis, where their core product should be in high demand.

That's the problem with these private equity investments. They buy businesses to milk profits out of, and then flog them on. I suspect that's why so many decisions at Alton Towers may seem bizarre to the average consumer, but make perfect sense to the equity fund. It doesn't matter if the business crashes and burns once you sell it on, the long-term future isn't your problem.

 

[Jb85]

It’s just people falliing over backwards attempting to defend the self-evident cuts to the Alton Towers offering. It’s curious that Chessington is only about 15 minutes further a drive from Warwick Castle than Alton Towers is, and yet they don’t seem to have the same concerns about cannibalising business.

For some, there’s always an excuse to grasp for.

I live in Warwick, it’s not 15 minutes drive to Chessingtin…. Or Alton!

 

[Thameslink Rail]

First off Alton Towers to Warwick Castle is actually 50 miles as the crow files


Second, that measurement is of little use because we're not crows and are limited to the road network which is not direct so it becomes more like 65 miles or 90 mins depending on traffic.
Alton Towers and Warwick Castle can easily put on Christmas events with light shows without splitting demand, heck there are folks who would happily go to the both in one Christmas.

 

[Blackrock]

I had no idea St Modwen (owned by Blackstone) owned Trentham!

I've just bought a house off them last month. One of the strangest businesses I've ever had dealings with. Desperate to sell me an expensive house, but refusing to negotiate. Almost like they'd baked a profit margin into their model, and were completely ignorant toward things not going to plan.

I managed to get some blood out of the stone in the end, but should really have walked away. Beautiful house and had it professionally snagged. Even the snagger said it's one of the best he's seen, real high quality and a very small list. But whilst your bog standard Persimmons of this world will cut corners and then budget for the fallout (I bought 2 new builds off them, and although their houses are a bit shoddy, you just walk up to the site manager he'll send some people round to do pretty much whatever you want), getting to snagging done is like pulling teeth.

They've designed and built these beautiful houses, and put a lot of thought into the design of the area alongside the council. No dodgy stuff here. It's an old RAF base and they've made it a fantastic place to live. But they seem so bad at business, they're furiously selling off land to other developers because their weird business practices are preventing them from getting a good return. They're doing all this during a housing crisis, where their core product should be in high demand.

That's the problem with these private equity investments. They buy businesses to milk profits out of, and then flog them on. I suspect that's why so many decisions at Alton Towers may seem bizarre to the average consumer, but make perfect sense to the equity fund. It doesn't matter if the business crashes and burns once you sell it on, the long-term future isn't your problem.

I don’t think 99% of people know they’re owned by the same equity fund, to be honest St Mowden have transformed Trentham, I just wish they’d gone a further like their original plans suggested. But Trentham really is a huge success story.

Other than Trentham St Mowden are known round Stoke for land banking.

But whether it’s Trentham/Alton/Houses they’ll ultimately be trying to squeeze the juice as much as possible. Luckily although they want to sell Trentham Gardens (excluding the monkey forest) it doesn’t seem like they’re in much of a rush which is good.

 

[AltonLover123]

I live in Warwick, it’s not 15 minutes drive to Chessingtin…. Or Alton!

I think they meant from Warwick, chessington is only a slightly longer journey than driving to Alton.

Chessington do a similar offering to Warwick, so he’s suggesting that the argument of competition is irrelevant as the distances to both are similar l.

 

[Jb85]

I think they meant from Warwick, chessington is only a slightly longer journey than driving to Alton.

Chessington do a similar offering to Warwick, so he’s suggesting that the argument of competition is irrelevant as the distances to both are similar l.

I know what they meant - and it’s not 15 mins ;-)

 

[Squiggs]

I know what they meant - and it’s not 15 mins ;-)

I think they're basing that on Google Maps. According to their direction tool, from Warwick Castle you can drive to Alton Towers in 1hr 35, and to Chessington in 1r 50.

 

[AltonLover123]

I know what they meant - and it’s not 15 mins ;-)

Looks as though the typical journey can be sometimes within 15 mins.

Granted the other end of the estimate is up to 20 mins, but the lower end is 10. So for an average perhaps let’s go to the middle and say 15