Immigration

[Harv]

In a nutshell, do you believe immigration should be more limited than it is nowadays? The government are looking into a reform on the immigration policies, as announced this week, and I wondered what the people of TST thought on the matter.

I am both for and against immigration. There is the obvious argument that British jobs should go to British people, and our money should not be given to those coming in from overseas. However, I also feel that immigration can be of benefit; it offer better international relationships, skills from abroad, and as brutally honest as it is - better workers. It is no secret that foreign workers are often more appreciative of their jobs and work much more diligently as a consequence. So yeah, I'm pretty torn on the matter.

What do you guys think?

 

[Sam]

I work in immigration.

The current immigration policies are a lot tougher than most people think. When most people talk about immigration, they have no idea what they're talking about, to be bluntly honest.

Did you know that to get your application for further leave to remain even considered it costs £561? And even then, it'll very likely be refused. Most people have no idea about this...

 

[Martin]

Bloody Poles, coming over here, taking all the jobs we feel are beneath us, with their hard work ethic and low pay demands.

DEY TOOK URRRR JURRBS!!1

 

[Fredward]

I see both sides of the argument, But believe we are on the urge of over population. So think it's right to have strict immigration laws.

I think letting people come in and "TOOK URRRR JURRBS!!1" will honestly create more racism then cure.

If you have lost a job because a immigrant will work harder for less money, you will feel spite towards them. They did sort of take your job, regardless of whether or not it's more financial viable...

Either way I'm on the fence. I think the systems ok what we have now.

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

http://youtu.be/l8ZJu-f-XOE

 

[Sam]

I see both sides of the argument, But believe we are on the urge of over population. So think it's right to have strict immigration laws.

I presume you mean 'edge'. But you need something to back up this 'edge of over-population' claim. It's not really good enough to say that you 'believe' it. Facts, sources please. Why are we on the edge of over-population?

There's much unused brown-field sites in our cities, and we can always build taller like they do in other countries. Deprived and miserable little towns like Rotherham or Doncaster could become transformed by a big population boost. More people means more demand for better services, better transport, more entertainment options.

If you have lost a job because a immigrant will work harder for less money, you will feel spite towards them. They did sort of take your job, regardless of whether or not it's more financial viable...

They can only work so long (working time directive) and for so little (minimum wage). And jobs can't fire you without a good reason - the tribunal system and all that. If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's most likely because you weren't very good at your job.

 

[Wilsy]

I've removed a number of posts from here, please try and stick to the debate.

Thank you.

 

[Tom]

Just to get all the fascist red-topisms out of the way, so they need not be said again:

We need to take care of our own first.

Political correctness gone mad.

Generic EU statement.

British pensioners get nothing.

We have starving kids.

Our brave soldiers get less.

British jobs for British workers.

 

[Adam]

Personally, I'm pro immigration in the UK. I love the cultural diversity it's brought to Britain, and I'm friends with several people whose families came to the UK from abroad, and they're all great people. Also, something that the anti-immigration people often don't consider is that the more people there is in the country, the higher the countries GDP. In this economic climate, having a higher GDP is very much a good thing for Britain.

As for over-population, I've never bought that. Look around any town/city in the UK and there's loads of disused land that could be used for things like housing projects or amenities. Scunthorpe for example has places all around town that could very easily become housing estates, but are just barren plots of brownfield land that used to be things like factories or warehouses.

 

[Dar]

Seeing as my facetious post was removed, I better make a genuine contribution!

Immigration is good for the whole cultural improvement idea. However, I think we should give preference to people that have a skill or trade over those that just rock up to the country.

That's not to say they shouldn't be allowed into the country, just that if we have a limit then those that have a trade would be given preference.

After all, is the idea of immigration not to boost an economy?

...the more people there is in the country, the higher the countries GDP. In this economic climate, having a higher GDP is very much a good thing for Britain.

That's not quite how GDP works, it's based on the output of the nation rather than population.

 

[Fredward]

I see both sides of the argument, But believe we are on the urge of over population. So think it's right to have strict immigration laws.

I presume you mean 'edge'. But you need something to back up this 'edge of over-population' claim. It's not really good enough to say that you 'believe' it. Facts, sources please. Why are we on the edge of over-population?

There's much unused brown-field sites in our cities, and we can always build taller like they do in other countries. Deprived and miserable little towns like Rotherham or Doncaster could become transformed by a big population boost. More people means more demand for better services, better transport, more entertainment options.

If you have lost a job because a immigrant will work harder for less money, you will feel spite towards them. They did sort of take your job, regardless of whether or not it's more financial viable...

They can only work so long (working time directive) and for so little (minimum wage). And jobs can't fire you without a good reason - the tribunal system and all that. If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's most likely because you weren't very good at your job.

Since my other post got deleted. I'll post exactly the same thing but with more words.

No I'm not going to produce evidence Sam, I'm writing a forum post, not a university essay, I'm not going to go and do some research for a comment in a general topic on a rollercoaster forum...

 

[Adam]

...the more people there is in the country, the higher the countries GDP. In this economic climate, having a higher GDP is very much a good thing for Britain.

That's not quite how GDP works, it's based on the output of the nation rather than population.

It is influenced by the population though. Gross Domestic Product can be determined in three ways. Expenditure, Product & Income.

Expenditure: The amount spent by everyone in the county in a year.
Product: Value of the goods/services produced in the country in a year.
Income: Total annual income of everyone in the country.

 

[Tom]

GDP raising or falling isn't directly connected to living standards. It is virtually a meaningless figure.


-Sent from a mobile phone-

 

[Dar]

...the more people there is in the country, the higher the countries GDP. In this economic climate, having a higher GDP is very much a good thing for Britain.

That's not quite how GDP works, it's based on the output of the nation rather than population.

It is influenced by the population though. Gross Domestic Product can be determined in three ways. Expenditure, Product & Income.

Expenditure: The amount spent by everyone in the county in a year.
Product: Value of the goods/services produced in the country in a year.
Income: Total annual income of everyone in the country.

Oh yes, definitely! But to say more people means a higher GDP is little off the mark, otherwise we would have had successive governments dragging people over the border!

(simple numbers because I can)
If you have 10 people come into the country, 5 engineers and 5 unskilled workers could more desirable than having 15 unskilled workers because the engineers would work in more added value industry, earning more leading to more disposable income, hopefully boosting GDP. If the unskilled workers work in Tesco (random), where they would earn (the last pay rate before I left) £7 per hour, they would bring less value to the economy.

I'm not trying to ridicule or belittle you, you make a good point and I'm just trying to expand on it. This is interesting! I actually enjoyed Economics at school!

GDP raising or falling isn't directly connected to living standards. It is virtually a meaningless figure.


-Sent from a mobile phone-

It's a meaningless figure for the general public, but in terms of international politics and currency and markets and all that rubbish, it's quite an important indicator.

 

[Adam]

...the more people there is in the country, the higher the countries GDP. In this economic climate, having a higher GDP is very much a good thing for Britain.

That's not quite how GDP works, it's based on the output of the nation rather than population.

It is influenced by the population though. Gross Domestic Product can be determined in three ways. Expenditure, Product & Income.

Expenditure: The amount spent by everyone in the county in a year.
Product: Value of the goods/services produced in the country in a year.
Income: Total annual income of everyone in the country.

Oh yes, definitely! But to say more people means a higher GDP is little off the mark, otherwise we would have had successive governments dragging people over the border!

(simple numbers because I can)
If you have 10 people come into the country, 5 engineers and 5 unskilled workers could more desirable than having 15 unskilled workers because the engineers would work in more added value industry, earning more leading to more disposable income, hopefully boosting GDP. If the unskilled workers work in Tesco (random), where they would earn (the last pay rate before I left) £7 per hour, they would bring less value to the economy.

I'm not trying to ridicule or belittle you, you make a good point and I'm just trying to expand on it. This is interesting! I actually enjoyed Economics at school!

Ha, what's happened here mate is that we we're both saying the same basic thing, just in different ways. I just said higher as I was putting it simply, to avoid turning this topic into a lesson on Economics

And I enjoy Economics at college as well! ;D

 

[Sam]

I see both sides of the argument, But believe we are on the urge of over population. So think it's right to have strict immigration laws.

I presume you mean 'edge'. But you need something to back up this 'edge of over-population' claim. It's not really good enough to say that you 'believe' it. Facts, sources please. Why are we on the edge of over-population?

There's much unused brown-field sites in our cities, and we can always build taller like they do in other countries. Deprived and miserable little towns like Rotherham or Doncaster could become transformed by a big population boost. More people means more demand for better services, better transport, more entertainment options.

If you have lost a job because a immigrant will work harder for less money, you will feel spite towards them. They did sort of take your job, regardless of whether or not it's more financial viable...

They can only work so long (working time directive) and for so little (minimum wage). And jobs can't fire you without a good reason - the tribunal system and all that. If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's most likely because you weren't very good at your job.

Since my other post got deleted. I'll post exactly the same thing but with more words.

No I'm not going to produce evidence Sam, I'm writing a forum post, not a university essay, I'm not going to go and do some research for a comment in a general topic on a rollercoaster forum...

Posts like this ruin debates. People just posting completely made-up assertions dressed up as facts ('we are on the edge of over-population') and then becoming offended when someone asks them to back up their completely spurious assertion with actual sources, or any sort of evidence at all. :

Immigration is good for the whole cultural improvement idea. However, I think we should give preference to people that have a skill or trade over those that just rock up to the country.

Nobody who just 'rocks up to the country' is allowed to stay. There is no immigration path for people who simply quite like it here.

 

[Tom]

Apart from the stupid claims of so and so being the Xth largest economy in means NOTHING to the people of the country. How is a country's wealth important if it doesn't reflect the people that live in it?


-Sent from a mobile phone-

 

[Poisson]

GDP is VERY easily distorted by rich and poor people. It is a bad statistic for it.

 

[Fredward]

I see both sides of the argument, But believe we are on the urge of over population. So think it's right to have strict immigration laws.

I presume you mean 'edge'. But you need something to back up this 'edge of over-population' claim. It's not really good enough to say that you 'believe' it. Facts, sources please. Why are we on the edge of over-population?

There's much unused brown-field sites in our cities, and we can always build taller like they do in other countries. Deprived and miserable little towns like Rotherham or Doncaster could become transformed by a big population boost. More people means more demand for better services, better transport, more entertainment options.

If you have lost a job because a immigrant will work harder for less money, you will feel spite towards them. They did sort of take your job, regardless of whether or not it's more financial viable...

They can only work so long (working time directive) and for so little (minimum wage). And jobs can't fire you without a good reason - the tribunal system and all that. If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's most likely because you weren't very good at your job.

Since my other post got deleted. I'll post exactly the same thing but with more words.

No I'm not going to produce evidence Sam, I'm writing a forum post, not a university essay, I'm not going to go and do some research for a comment in a general topic on a rollercoaster forum...

Posts like this ruin debates. People just posting completely made-up assertions dressed up as facts ('we are on the edge of over-population') and then becoming offended when someone asks them to back up their completely spurious assertion with actual sources, or any sort of evidence at all. :

posts like this peeves me off. I don't want a debate with you, I was only putting forth an opinion, or more accurately displaying the reasoning for some people to have an opinion. I don't want a debate especially not with you.

Yup i'm offended, i'm going to go cry now, probably jump off oblivions lift hill while I'm at it.

 

[Poisson]

Yup i'm offended, i'm going to go cry now, probably jump off oblivions lift hill while I'm at it.

Waaait! You forgot your rope