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London Entertainment Resort: All Discussion

Mr Pearse said:
I hardly doubt this if it actually happens will actually get the number of overseas guests. For that you need a well established named park/ip to stand a chance. So unless you have something to tempt overseas guests then I doubt they will bother when they could easily and probably cheaper to go to Disneyland. They can build the most unbelievable park but if you stick a ton on outdated or unknown ips around the park then it’s not going to attract the overseas crowd.
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You don't need a well established IP. It helps and gives a boost and an initial draw, but it isn't what makes the place a good, memorable experience. That's the problem with the park as a whole. Much like Merlin, everything is decided in a boardroom on a box ticking exercise to please investors in the short term.

It's also a mis-truth to say nobody can compete with Disney. It's incredibly difficult because of the budget Disney has; and thus the market barriers to entry. However, it is absolutely possible with the right mindset and the right budget to have a theme park on par with a Disney park. Disney will always have a gigantic advantage of the branding and history that goes back decades, but that's not as important as people probably think it is. It's more about the actual park. Creativity is at the heart of what makes a theme park exceptional. Using the best creative minds and ideally figures with a wealth of experience. Paramount (or london resort or whatever it is called these days) did use some of the figures who helped develop UK parks in the 80s, but the influence they had was unfortunately disappointingly small. Some great concept art was produced, but the odds of that being followed through with are very small indeed.
 
Sauron97 said:
You don't need a well established IP. It helps and gives a boost and an initial draw, but it isn't what makes the place a good, memorable experience. That's the problem with the park as a whole. Much like Merlin, everything is decided in a boardroom on a box ticking exercise to please investors in the short term.

It's also a mis-truth to say nobody can compete with Disney. It's incredibly difficult because of the budget Disney has; and thus the market barriers to entry. However, it is absolutely possible with the right mindset and the right budget to have a theme park on par with a Disney park. Disney will always have a gigantic advantage of the branding and history that goes back decades, but that's not as important as people probably think it is. It's more about the actual park. Creativity is at the heart of what makes a theme park exceptional. Using the best creative minds and ideally figures with a wealth of experience. Paramount (or london resort or whatever it is called these days) did use some of the figures who helped develop UK parks in the 80s, but the influence they had was unfortunately disappointingly small. Some great concept art was produced, but the odds of that being followed through with are very small indeed.
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Europa Park aside I don't think there's a single park in Europe that competes with DLP as the full package. Sure there's the likes of Liseberg, Phantasialand etc that have some great attractions but as an overall package I think Disney and Europa are streets ahead of the rest.

Europa park get between 5 n 6 m visitors currently and they are a well established park with years of experience. This is what makes me think the estimate of 6.5m visitors a year is pure tosh. They wouldn't get those numbers straight away. Not even Disney got that in its first operating year in Paris.
 
Benjsh said:
Europa Park aside I don't think there's a single park in Europe that competes with DLP as the full package. Sure there's the likes of Liseberg, Phantasialand etc that have some great attractions but as an overall package I think Disney and Europa are streets ahead of the rest.

Europa park get between 5 n 6 m visitors currently and they are a well established park with years of experience. This is what makes me think the estimate of 6.5m visitors a year is pure tosh. They wouldn't get those numbers straight away. Not even Disney got that in its first operating year in Paris.
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Of course. No park could establish itself straight away and it'd take a while to build an image of both itself and the attractions that exist within it. I was just answering the poster who said it was impossible to compete with Disney. I completely agree though, there's no park as of yet that does. The reasons are financial though, not the 'quality' of park. The risks of building a gigantic theme park on the same scale of Disney aren't worth it to most investors in this country. Our regulations are tight, our land isn't cheap, and building theme parks is a costly exercise. Hopefully that can change though, as there's definitely opportunities and room for a new park, especially with an expanding population.
 
Sauron97 said:
Of course. No park could establish itself straight away and it'd take a while to build an image of both itself and the attractions that exist within it. I was just answering the poster who said it was impossible to compete with Disney. I completely agree though, there's no park as of yet that does. The reasons are financial though, not the 'quality' of park. The risks of building a gigantic theme park on the same scale of Disney aren't worth it to most investors in this country. Our regulations are tight, our land isn't cheap, and building theme parks is a costly exercise. Hopefully that can change though, as there's definitely opportunities and room for a new park, especially with an expanding population.
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If they ever build this it won't be the theme park they are overly interested in. Do you know how long it will take to pay off the investment purely off theme park gate receipts? Several lifetimes.

They will be interested in the hotels, retail and other entertainment venues they have planned too. That's where the real money for them will be. Disneyland Paris makes 20 to 23m profit a year and there's no way the London Resort will get anything close to that.

This is about the other stuff they are pitching in the resort. It has to be.
 
There are plenty of parks that can rival Disney in quality. I personally think Europa Park is better than Disneyland Paris.

However quality doesn't equal success. If the London Resort needs to achieve Disney levels of success for the business model to work then they need a lot more than just a good product. They need to match Disney's brand awareness, which can only be achieved with established IPs.

Case in point here are Europe's top 5 visited parks in 2018:
1. Disneyland Paris - 10 million
2: Europa Park - 5.7 million
3: Walt Disney Studios - 5.4 million
4: Efteling - 4.6 million
5: Tivoli - 3.6 million

Firstly you'll notice that Disneyland Paris absolutely dominates the competition. More importantly while Europa has taken the second spot it's close between it and the Walt Disney Studios, a park renown as Disney's worst attraction. And I have no doubt that when the Frozen and Star Wars areas open in this park it'll jump straight past Europa and start seeing similar numbers to the main park.
That's the power of IPs and brand awareness. Despite the quality and well establishment of the other parks (Efteling and Tivoli both pre-date the original Disneyland) there's no competition.
 
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In terms of investment and longevity

We don’t actually know who is funding this yet.

the Arab nations are well known to be stockpiling foreign investments that they can rely on once the oil has gone. It may be they are behind this and building it with a view to a return in 30-40 years time

incidentally, how long did it take Disney to make a profit / return on their European investment?
 
In truth, because of financial restructuring...twice I think, and a straightforward cash bail out, I'm not sure if Disney has ever made a real profit on it's European parks.
All this isn't anything to do with the London Resort though...unless the mystery investor is willing to be identified, I still have zero faith that this will ever happen.
Recession, Covid, Brexit...no mention in the planning consultation documents, it's like they have never happened.
 
Tim said:
There are plenty of parks that can rival Disney in quality. I personally think Europa Park is better than Disneyland Paris.

However quality doesn't equal success. If the London Resort needs to achieve Disney levels of success for the business model to work then they need a lot more than just a good product. They need to match Disney's brand awareness, which can only be achieved with established IPs.

Case in point here are Europe's top 5 visited parks in 2018:
1. Disneyland Paris - 10 million
2: Europa Park - 5.7 million
3: Walt Disney Studios - 5.4 million
4: Efteling - 4.6 million
5: Tivoli - 3.6 million

Firstly you'll notice that Disneyland Paris absolutely dominates the competition. More importantly while Europa has taken the second spot it's close between it and the Walt Disney Studios, a park renown as Disney's worst attraction. And I have no doubt that when the Frozen and Star Wars areas open in this park it'll jump straight past Europa and start seeing similar numbers to the main park.
That's the power of IPs and brand awareness. Despite the quality and well establishment of the other parks (Efteling and Tivoli both pre-date the original Disneyland) there's no competition.
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This was the point I was making. I agree that Europa Park probably shades it over Disneyland Paris main park as best theme park in Europe. But just look at the attendance figures as you rightly say.

London Resort, if it is ever built, would do well to hit 3 to 4m people in year one.

They will need incredibly strong IP's to ever get upwards of 5m a year. Europa don't really have those IP's but it's taken them year and years to reach those numbers.

It's just one of many aspects to all this I find very hard to believe.
 
There will be a lot of deciding factors when if it does get built. I doubt the merlin parks will see a dramatic drop in visitor numbers as no doubt they will still be pushing the usual gimmicks and cheap ticket offers to entice people in. In terms of overseas visitors unless they have a strong well known ip/brand like I said earlier then they will be lucky to get 1-2million visitors. If the thought process behind this park is if we build it they will come then it’s completely the wrong approach you need to entice people in, the park could well be worth £100 a ticket but the average person isn’t going to pay that when they could save the money and go to a merlin park etc. I doubt you could entice people from over seas with outdated ips you need something big and grand. As pointed out earlier only europa park gets the sort of numbers they are expecting but they have taken years of establishing the brand to reach that level I doubt the investors of this project will have the patience to wait years on end for there investment to actually grow with the sort of money being mentioned it’s no lose change for most people.
 
I think we need to remember how popular the wb studio tours are with tourists. This is alot easier to visit from central London. I think alot of day trips could be had. Look how awkward DLP is from Paris and how long it takes.

The venue would also be home to a large water park, and wants to host eSports among other things. It's a true resort that plans to offer more than just one attraction. What are the predicted numbers for the waterpark being built in Manchester area? That on its own would be a huge draw 30 minutes from c London.
 
AT86 said:
DLP is 30mins via a direct RER train from Paris? I wouldn’t call it awkward.
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and thats also one of the reasons DLP struggled with profitability, Eisner build loads of hotels, but people realised they could stay in central Paris and travel out to the park.
 
jon81uk said:
and thats also one of the reasons DLP struggled with profitability, Eisner build loads of hotels, but people realised they could stay in central Paris and travel out to the park.
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We've been every year for the last 4 years and stayed about 10 mins away in same hotel. It's basic but its dirt cheap and incredibly clean and easy to get to the park from. That's why he stay there. I think on our last trip we got a room for the 3 of us for 28quid a night. Amazing price.
 
WDS can be kinda discounted from the top 10, because if people are travelling to Disneyland Paris for a couple of days, it seems sensible to do WDS too if you're not a regular visitor. While people traveling to Europa are specifically travelling to Europa. If the LER wants to be a succesful attraction they need to ensure that they become a destination in their own right. I think they could benefit from being multi-lingual too as there location could provide for day trips from the continent.
 
SuperMuscleMan said:
I think we need to remember how popular the wb studio tours are with tourists. This is alot easier to visit from central London. I think alot of day trips could be had. Look how awkward DLP is from Paris and how long it takes.

The venue would also be home to a large water park, and wants to host eSports among other things. It's a true resort that plans to offer more than just one attraction. What are the predicted numbers for the waterpark being built in Manchester area? That on its own would be a huge draw 30 minutes from c London.
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Of course the wb studio tours are popular with tourists the clue is that it’s technically a Harry Potter tour it’s a worldwide popular ip. I can’t see many tourists quick to go to a park with Eastenders the ride as the headline attraction. Once again it comes down to how strong the ip/brand is, yes you could rival a Disney park but I doubt many investors will have to patience to wait for years on end to reach the level of Disney in Europe. As the chart shows Disney dominates europe with only europa park in between so I hardly doubt any park will ever be able to rival them over night.
 
MattyH said:
WDS can be kinda discounted from the top 10, because if people are travelling to Disneyland Paris for a couple of days, it seems sensible to do WDS too if you're not a regular visitor. While people traveling to Europa are specifically travelling to Europa. If the LER wants to be a succesful attraction they need to ensure that they become a destination in their own right. I think they could benefit from being multi-lingual too as there location could provide for day trips from the continent.
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This is true and I did think about it while writing my other post. It is possible that after WDS improves its offering it'll drag down DLP's attendance as guests choses to spend a day less in the main park. Or they just end up staying longer.
Likewise however if Europa was 2 separate parks it probably wouldn't be in the top 5 because attendance would be split. It's worth remembering Europa is huge (bigger than both Disney's parks combined I believe?)
 
AT86 said:
DLP is 30mins via a direct RER train from Paris? I wouldn’t call it awkward.
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It's more like 45-60 very few places it's direct and with ebbsfleet your 2 stops max with HS1. (16 mins). If this is more resort then I can see people staying . Also want to point out biggest drawback of DLP is the French... They like to strike.
 
SuperMuscleMan said:
It's more like 45-60 very few places it's direct and with ebbsfleet your 2 stops max with HS1. (16 mins). If this is more resort then I can see people staying . Also want to point out biggest drawback of DLP is the French... They like to strike.
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You’ve lost me.
 
A lot of the comments on Kent online Facebook page are incredibly negative. There's huge concerns over the plans and the traffic in particular.

I have to agree it's not exactly the best place for a theme park in terms of traffic and congestion. Bluewater close by and the incredibly busy M25. Bet it will be a nightmare at certain times to get there or get away.

What were the other sites they considered out of interest? I read there were alternatives.
 
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