-
ℹ️ Heads up...
This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks.
Monorail Refurbishment
- Thread starter WallisDan
- Start date
Leigh
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- EGF
That blue line goes up quite a significant gradient and also through a number of areas of forest land. I don’t think you’d get very far with it sadly.That gets me thinking, their golf course really isn't in the way, neither really is their test center curently the red path is the drive up from the south, it is quite good up untill the roundabout where the red and blue likes split, as there is a narrow bridge crossing and then it becomes propper country roads, if they were to expand some roads and build a new one they could open a new access from the south which wouldn't require going through Alton (not sure on heights or nature reserve things but the blue line could be a possible link) could ease the pressure on the current main enterance road and allow coaches/busses to access much easier:
Also, I’m not sure a bypass would solve the problem. Make things easier, sure, but I don’t think it would result in a meaningful enough reduction in car traffic. Thorpe demonstrates that - it actually has decent public transport links and still sees similar numbers of cars to towers.
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Ug Bugs
We are getting very off topic, but Merlin can't sell the property to anyone anymore, they've already done that once. All they have is a lease to operate the site, which is renewable every 35 years.
They literally opened a (mostly) brand new B+M coaster this year?
I’m all for criticising Merlin when it’s due but I don’t think you can really suggest that there hasn’t been any new-ride investment when they’ve retracked an entire coaster (save the lift hill).
A
They can sell the leasehold interest in the site though, suggesting that they can’t sell it just because the freehold was sold is like suggesting you can’t sell a flat on a long lease.
Alastair
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Rise of the Resistance
My point was it's not net new, therefore definitely won't have drawn as much visitorship as a genuine new investment. Thereby reducing the business case for transport upgrades (even if it is the business themselves that have caused this situation).
As mentioned however we are straying off topic slightly - we do have other threads for "future" discussion where this may be better suited. Keep this to the monorail please!
venny
TS Member
Whatever the excuses for the current monorail - them not wanting to close to refurb, availability of parts, lack of budget etc, there can be absolutely no excuse for the fact that the trains themselves are absolutely filthy.
Can the budget not stretch to a sponge and some hot water to remove the mold and algae growing INSIDE the trains?
Can the budget not stretch to a sponge and some hot water to remove the mold and algae growing INSIDE the trains?
flyingguitar
TS Member
I did think it would be steep, but I was partially thinking about the journey (They part through alton is really nice, but is someone is new following their satnav it can be quite bad (especially if it takes them to the 300 degree turn)) I was also thinking about the locals, a new road that stops people from driving through your town each day would probably be reasonably good.
tech
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Universe of Energy - Epcot (RIP)
I always find it interesting that any suggestion of a bus or road train gets written off or compared to seaside town fayre, when parking trams have worked just fine for WDW for over 50 years, and are just as integral to the guest experience - the CMs lined up with their thumbs in the air to dispatch, the roar of the diesel engine (for now), the dual language safety message, all things that remain etched in my head from my last visit.
I don’t personally want this to be a route that AT end up taking, but it’d certainly be the simplest option from where I’m standing.
I don’t personally want this to be a route that AT end up taking, but it’d certainly be the simplest option from where I’m standing.
Matt.GC
TS Member
As a country, Japan is pretty much the gold standard when it comes to public transport. Among their bullet trains, they also operate busses I've heard. Yet I don't think replacing the West Coast mainline with a MegaBus is a great idea.
GJMarshy
TS Member
Whilst it's true WDW successfully run land-train shuttles to connect their huge sprawling car parks (much larger than AT's) to the theme parks, the longest route a land-train there will ever make is 800m, and even then they run an absolute swarm of them in order to get a good throughput. They're also very long trains on bi-directional, dedicated right of ways.
A similar system at AT would be significantly longer at a minimum of 1.4km in length (Hotels through the main car park, along the parks fringes to the entrance plaza) You'd also need more trains to cover the route length, which means more drivers to pay (AT can't afford the same daily expenses as WDW) and such a system would necessitate a new dedicated bi-directional right of way, which won't come in cheap.
It seems an incredible waste when there's a pre-existing right of way (the monorail route) from A to B. Any replacement would do very well to re-use that, and it doesn't need to be a monorail. In fact monorails are fairly inflexible due to a variety of factors including switch tracks. Comparatively elevated guideways don't need this, and you can still easily automate them removing the necessity to pay drivers, and improving safety and reliability.
AT as we know it opened in 1986 with a dedicated park entrance & towers street. Before then it was more of a funfair in the woods with people parking in muddy fields. Visitor numbers were also far lower then! It was Towers Street that enabled the park to become a theme park by providing a purpose-built entrance from which guests could walk around the park after paying a single entry fee. This was only made possible by the monorail, without which there's no way you'd get away with placing the entrance/towers street where it is.
If in 1986 automated people mover or light rail technology was more available I'm sure they'd have chosen that instead! At the time monorails were the "in thing" (Queue Simpsons song!) and Sydney just so happened to have some trains to sell. The park made the investment because they knew in the long-run it was the only way to secure a future for the park as a world-class theme park.
Asking guests to walk an extra 3km round trip on top of trekking around the theme park was not acceptable, and still isn't.
The park surely knows it can't be what it is without the infrastructure that supports it to function that way. Buses & land-trains just don't stack up as a long-term investment given the operating costs, and nether do they have the capacity! At Disney they do work as you point out, but again, far more trains, more operational expenditure and a comparatively shorter route which can easily be integrated into their large surface car parks.
Squiggs
TS Team
Just for accuracy, the Alton Towers system came from Vancouver.
I believe it was the whole kit and caboodle they shipped over as well, track 'n all, though willing to be corrected on that if anyone else knows better.
flyingguitar
TS Member
I think AT could get away with less, those trams are huge and could easily carry an insane number of people I think 3 would probably surface as they would probably wait until full, then the next tram is queueing behind.
I think that the trams have become a part of the experience for Disney but I think they are very much a necessity for how they operate, they allow car park layout changes without restricting them, they also cut the route short if the car park isn't full yet, and quite a few other benefits.
I also bring this up again, but so they need to replace the monorail? maybe they could get new trains to improve it, or they could refurbish the trains and I don't think it would be too bad.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
One interesting issue with the Monorail these days is that I almost think it doesn’t span far enough anymore.
The issue is that the resort has expanded a fair bit since it was first built. If you’re staying in the furthest reaches of the resort, it’s a fair walk to the monorail station in the first place. If you’re staying in the CBeebies Land Hotel, or the furthest back parts of the Enchanted Village, you are a fair old walking distance from the car park monorail station, which could be a problem in itself for those who find it difficult to walk.
Despite the scepticism in this thread, I do think that a land train of some description would be a good replacement for this reason. Land trains are a bit more flexible than a monorail (if the resort expands, they can simply change the route), and likely have equivalent or lower operating costs. Them not affording the frequency of land trains that Walt Disney World operates likely wouldn’t be an issue because Alton’s visitor figures are so much lower.
The issue is that the resort has expanded a fair bit since it was first built. If you’re staying in the furthest reaches of the resort, it’s a fair walk to the monorail station in the first place. If you’re staying in the CBeebies Land Hotel, or the furthest back parts of the Enchanted Village, you are a fair old walking distance from the car park monorail station, which could be a problem in itself for those who find it difficult to walk.
Despite the scepticism in this thread, I do think that a land train of some description would be a good replacement for this reason. Land trains are a bit more flexible than a monorail (if the resort expands, they can simply change the route), and likely have equivalent or lower operating costs. Them not affording the frequency of land trains that Walt Disney World operates likely wouldn’t be an issue because Alton’s visitor figures are so much lower.
Matt.GC
TS Member
Is this the same Disney World that also operates quite an extensive monorail service and has never replaced it with a land train? Don't they also operate a ferry as well? Their centerpieces are also made of fiberglass that wasn't built by Augustus Pugin in the 1800's, and I don't recall them ever operating a B&M invert in a giant pit either.
What's wrong with Alton Towers being Alton Towers? Alton Towers has a monorail. Whichever way you look at it, replacing it with a land train would be a substantial downgrade.
What's wrong with Alton Towers being Alton Towers? Alton Towers has a monorail. Whichever way you look at it, replacing it with a land train would be a substantial downgrade.
Tom
TS Member
It's about what is the realistic prognosis. If it's down to two trains as has been stated then it is likely to in final stages of life. Trains are expensive to maintain and operate. Not sure they would operate with one, but maybe they would. Replacing trains would be very expensive, and I suspect you would more likely get a new entrance(s) to kill off the thing once and for all.
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Ug Bugs
Where would you propose the route for the land trains, so as to not negatively impact the current traffic or pedestrian flow, goes? They're fairly limited as to what they could do with the current set up.
Matt N
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Shambhala (PortAventura Park)
They might have to do some changes to road layouts and such, but I imagine that would be far less expensive and time-consuming than doing a major refurbishment or replacement of the Monorail. The park has previously run buses to and from the entrance during February Half Term, so it can be done.
The unfortunate truth is that monorails are expensive things, perhaps overly so for a park of Alton Towers’ calibre to run. Even when the ride was originally built at Alton Towers in 1987, it was at least partially second hand rather than brand new. A monorail in the style of the original Alton Towers one is an expensive beast, and I almost don’t think a full like for like replacement or hefty refurbishment is overly realistic in terms of outlay. The outlay for a replacement or hefty refurbishment would be absolutely huge, and would likely comfortably outweigh that of any major ride the park has ever built.
Not many parks have big monorails like Alton’s. When plenty of parks still have a long walk between the entrance and the car parks, there must be a reason for that.
Joel3
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Nemesis
Matt.GC
TS Member
This is the thing, I don't think we truly know the state of it. Is it a case of it being slowly retired to avoid spending any money on it at all?
It's very doubtful that the whole thing will be completely knackered. It strikes me as the kind of infrastructure that just needs constant maintenance throughout it's lifetime, rather than a 30/40 years and done situation.
I still think that purchasing 4 new trains alone would run into the tens of millions. But should the odd support or track section be replaced as and when needed on a rolling basis? Can each train be refurbished as needed? I just get this feeling that, rather than upgrading it continuously, they've just kicked it into the long grass every year, and carried on cannibalising other trains.