Music Snobbery?

[GAGrathea]

X Factor Winners:

2004 - Steve Brookstein - Dropped from label after 1st album, 1 single, nothing of note after.
2005 - Shayne Ward - Okay, he's done a bit for himself but nothing of note for a while?
2006 - Leona Lewis - Still charting occasionally.
2007 - Leon Jackson - Dropped from label after 1st album, taught himself to play piano and guitar (aww!) and hasn't done much since.
2008 - Alexandra Burke - Apparently still going but has anyone actually heard anything from her lately?
2009 - Joe McElderry - No significant impact since he won.
2010 - Matt Cardle - Had already been a guitarist in several bands before winning, did some stuff.
2011 - Little Mix - Odd single here and there, TOWERS.
2012 - James Arthur - Covered some song but really hasn't had time to do anything else... (interestingly also a guitarist/vocalist previous to the show)

...basically what I'm saying is - looking at X Factor alone I wouldn't say it's got a massive grip on the industry as a whole, nowhere near the amount people accredit to it anyway

I'll leave this great bit of album art:

Awww, no fair, I can't argue against your points if you use Chumba

 

[TheMan]

Singers and musicians used to get together and form bands or collaborate.

That is how great music is written. There are great song writers within pop music, love him or loathe him, Gary Barlow is a spectacularly talented song writer. There are along the way great pop music collaborations too, like All Saints and William Orbit.

All Saints - Pure Shores

All Saints - Black Coffee (HQ)

It has become more and more sparse though. I am not against pop music, I am against it's almost cattle pen production values.

EDIT:

...basically what I'm saying is - looking at X Factor alone I wouldn't say it's got a massive grip on the industry as a whole, nowhere near the amount people accredit to it anyway

Simon Cowell is not that rich, whilst many artists struggle to make a pittance of an income for no reason mate. His wealth alone could fund 100s if not 1000s of amazingly brilliant artists, with far more artistic ability. That wealth is cattle penned.

 

[Sam]

The absolute WORST for this kind of snobbery are people who like 80s cheese-metal bands like Iron Maiden or Metallica or whatever. They are the absolute worst for always talking about 'real music'.

They're also mostly responsible for this deeply unpleasant trend in popular culture recently, of genuine and vicious hatred towards young pop stars like One Direction or Justin Bieber. Some of the things you read about the latter and even hear on mainstream 'comedy' shows is just really horrible. Nasty, nasty stuff.

 

[TheMan]

They're also mostly responsible for this deeply unpleasant trend in popular culture recently, of genuine and vicious hatred towards young pop stars like One Direction or Justin Bieber. Some of the things you read about the latter and even hear on mainstream 'comedy' shows is just really horrible. Nasty, nasty stuff.

That is a bit strong, there is a rather extreme sect but I have not read any views here, other than that of frustration really, that is hatred. In fact I personally make it quite clear that is not the case with me. That however, does not make how the business model runs acceptable, and given you are a bastion for equality etc, I would expect that you share that view also?

Equality of opportunity is fair for all right?

 

[Kelpie]

Just reposting my post with the bit I kept but then went wholly off topic from the original AT Live thread....

In terms of marketing/market/aims it is absolutely spot on.

However, many of these are Cowell-ites, and for every successful singer/artist there is, there are trails of broken, confidence destroyed, talented youngsters. Many of those that do, are ridiculously exploited (always follow the money, Rule No1 of journalism), miss out on normal lives and upbringing, and these are supposed to be the people we encourage our kids to look up to, right?

How on Earth do you lot think Cowell got that rich? By being a really nice young gentleman helping up coming artists? That man bought a plague of ruin to the music industry, and many lives along the way (though I forgive him for really launching Diversity - his one accidental real success, not farmed). Anyone recall the Auto Tuned X-Factor? Enjoy watching the music industry turned into some freak circus show with a baying crowd?

Do I expect Towers to know or care? Of course not, and it will no doubt be fantastic for them of course! Calling distaste for this aspect of music "snobbery" however? Do me a favour.

Copied over: Yes I used the word 'snobby' but in the context of there being quite a lot of opinion of peoples musical tastes already here and I didn't feel that was the point of the topic. Will it be a success for AT on the basis of who they've booked? Yes.
It's fair to state you wont go because the act's don't appeal personally, I don't think it's necessary to go further than that and start casting opinion on wider musical taste of those who will, which some had. That was my only reason for using that word.

I don't watch X-Factor. It's less the people wanting to be on it, and more that I can't bear the competition between judges and worse the audience that I wish would shut up. If it's going to be a singing competition show including some constructive critisism, I'd like it to have a chance to be said and actual constructive critisim. And really, there are only a handful of artists that have genuinely done well long term between it and Pop Idol (and most of those haven't been the winners either). Which probably proves actually just how ineffective it is as a method of breaking into the music industry on top of the other unpleasant aspects of it.

Though there have always been youngsters, wanting to be in music and ridiculously exploited, missing out on normal lives etc. long before the television programme method came along. From The Supremes to Boyzone to lesser and greater degrees of manipulation. Don't forget the 80's Music Factory either. And before X-Factor was Pop Idol, before Pop Idol there was Fame Acadamy, before Fame Acadamy there was the Big Big Talent Show (it gave us Charlotte Church anyway) before that Opportunity Knocks and throw in S-Club 7 and The Monkees and so on...

Occasionally there is genuine talent to be found amongst the manufactured masses - Gary Barlow is undeniably one of those. And he was always the least fanciable member of Take That at the time, lol! But someone was sensible enough to allow the talent in the group to have an outlet and flourish, same with Tony from E17, and many others where the manufactured band was the route in to get into the industry. But out of X-Factor, it seems to be very stifled. At least it is if you win.

I miss Top Of The Pops (presenters aside) - and it's demise has left us with Cowell's machine as the only mainstream primetime output of music & performances from chart acts So they all have to fit just that show's narrow definition of 'pop'. Wow that's depressing.

 

[Adam]

I don't like the X Factory in principle, but I've got nothing against anyone who goes on it. I've never seen why people target the people who actually go on the show? Who wouldn't want to be rich? It's Cowell who I can't stand. That said, I certainly don't think he's "killed" modern music. Major record labels are far worse for modern music than the X Factory ever will be. For example, check this article or this Wikipedia page. Bloody disgraceful isn't it? And people think Cowell is the worst person in the world for the music industry? The integrity of the music industry died well before Cowell had even entered the business.

 

[GAGrathea]

I'd like to say for a moment that I really really really dislike X Factor and that my post wasn't trying to defend it in any way. Just wanted to try and prove that other than a few token Christmas Number 1 attempts, while its impact on the TV schedule may have been great, its impact on the charts has really been quite minuscule! (Especially so for the winners, you get interesting 2nd place exceptions like JLS...)

Meanwhile Stock Aitken Waterman in their time were churning out You Spin Me Round, Never Gonna Give You Up, I Should Be So Lucky, The Locomotion among hundreds of others - the super-processed music industry isn't that new. But I think it healthily runs alongside other stuff quite consistently (Mumford & Sons in the charts right now...)

Then you look further back and get scary things where kids were forced into music (The Jacksons...and for the creepiest example ever, The Shaggs. )

 

[LewisNavex]

Listen to whatever music you like and of course you should show your support for your favourite artist/genre. I have very flexible music tastes, metal, techno believe me i'll find at least one song I enjoy.

No excuses for being snobby, obviously Towers have picked the genre with the largest fan base to increase ticket sales. (My sister who doesn't like roller coasters is going purely for the lineup). I'm sure if Towers was a concert venue and could host events like this more often they would with variety of genres.

The simple truth to it all... ＳＨＵＴ　ＵＰ　ＡＮＤ　ＥＮＪＯＹ　ＴＨＥ　ＭＵＳＩＣ！

 

[TheMan]

A lot of old popular music (as defined) has held or even increased it's credibility and likeability down the years, the same generations moaning about new music, old music is better etc - this is not a new thing ha!

What is though, is how the industry is having the pips squeezed out of it, and is churning out some real rubbish. This isn't an accident, budgets are squeezed and more pressure put on engineers and producers to get the job done cheap and quick, and often to a lower standard. Hence so much of it sounds like everything else, and is basic and rather bereft of emotion. Also the roles of who does what have become blurred because each area of expertise is less valued than before - and especially from labels, they are more demanding in their input over other areas they had little to do with in the past.

It is a reason an acquaintance of mine got out of this industry, and returned to independent much to his credit and loyalty to real music. Too many of his friends were coming down ill with work stresses, that was the final straw so he got out. He isn't the only one I know of doing that though, and we are talking No.1 hit pop record writers here, not bedroom producers.

My view isn't simply my opinion, I am simply providing information of what happens, and the general mood of the professional industry.

The integrity of the music industry died well before Cowell had even entered the business.

The industry has always been something else lol, but some of what you mention up there is a result of this rampant commercialism. Cowell is only one face of this that is true, but he is a rather big player, as I say - you don't amass that amount of money otherwise, about the 6th richest person in the UK Music industry I believe.

I've found stuff out about some people I did idolise a bit, who aren't "pop" so let's not pretend everything else is squeeky clean lol, it isn't of course. I'm not sure the industry has ever had integrity ha-ha! Not as things are artistically of course, but still, there is some room for a balanced perspective there Adam dude for sure

;D

EDIT:
I remember back in my band playing days the conversations of "We don't sign the rights to our music away" and "We maintain our integrity, and don't bow to the will of a label to take us in a certain direction" were frequent and well known. It isn't like the industry was all rainbows and fluffy ribbons of innocence lol! It is at a ridiculous stage now though, and needs the balance addressing. Way out of kilter.

 

[Simon]

I went to a concert the other week.

It was rubbish; they did NOTHING but covers by guys who were only in it for the money.

Last time I give the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra my money!

 

[Poisson]

Covers are good things in the right situation...... I present you four good examples here:

Caliban - Sonne HQ

Dispatched - The Final Countdown

The Defiled "The Unforgiven" cover

Alestorm - You Are a Pirate!

Remember covers aren't all bad, just when a band does nothing of their own it isn't good. Orchestras are an exception obviously.

 

[Fredward]

not sure I 100% agree with it. But......

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/columns/features/are_we_all_hipsters_at_heart.html

When I was in my school/college days I was very much a music snob or more accurately overly defensive of my specific chosen genre.

I listen to whatever nowadays, I find stuff like X factor a tad bland, but not bad. If it was playing in the background, may tap your foot, but I won't buy the albums or listen to the songs by my own accord.

Thing with music is it's purely subjective. People are free to love and hate what they please. We are on the internet when it's massively easy to express this love or hatred.

I would say music snobbery can come down to defence. You get to the point where you somehow feel, someone has told you, or (in Blazes case) you see it on an album cover, that mainstream music, x factor and boybands may kill off the music you love. Eventually the evil malevolent Simon Cowell will get rid of your favourite band. Calm down a second and you realise, this won't happen.

Another way music snobbery comes about (probably more frequently) is fairness. When you see your favourite band of 'talented' musicians get a smaller pay check then Justin Beiber, one Direction ext. who have a production team who do alot of the work while Beiber takes the majority of the money, you instantly hate everything Beiber stands for, as a matter of principle rather then anything to do with his music.

That's my two cents on the origins of music snobbery, I can understand why people get have music snobbery, but I personally couldn't give a damn! It makes no effect on my day to day activities what Beibers pay check is, or whether he lip syncs or not! Though I do find the jokes funny sometimes!

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

Sorry Tom, but I've got to disagree with your choice of 'good' covers. Not because it's not my kind of music, but because they aren't particularly special. They just replace the instruments with heavy metal and the singing with screaming. It's the goth equivelant of happy hardcore 'covers'.

Rather, what makes a good cover is when an artist takes the song and completely makes it their own. A famous example is Hendrix's cover of 'All Along The Watchtower', Pet Shop Boys' 'You Were Always On My Mind' or The Beatles' 'Twist and Shout'. These songs take the originals and build upon them, to the point where you could say they 'own' the song.

The best cover of all time, though, is Johnny Cash's cover of 'Hurt':

http://youtu.be/SmVAWKfJ4Go

It's brilliant because of the emotion poured into it, which simply does not come across in NiN's original. THAT is how you do a cover.

 

[TheMan]

Just to add again, the music "snobbery" expressed is I agree at times a defense of a preference of genre.

However, it is not a made up whim that due to the nature of this commercial overload, real and great music of all styles is being squashed and prevented from shining out.

That is not an opinion based on a music preference, (mine is generally, if it is well made or well written). Even styles I do not like, I can appreciate musical ability or expression - the music I listen to now is not my "genre", but I still must make judgements on quality of musicianship, concept, feeling, professionalism, grasp of timbre and production values etc.

Musical preferences, and indeed violent discussions there of, have in fact arguably become less passionate than previously. I would recommend Sam looks into Mods and Rockers and the old indie venues, to discover just exactly how passionately music taste was "discussed" in days gone by ha-ha!!

What doesn't seem to be accepted though, is the realisation of how far past that we now are, and that it isn't acceptable as it is, and it really isn't good for the music industry or artists as a whole. The professionals within the industry are being phased out, and more and more being wanted for less and less - in the commercial arena at least.

It's a nonsense, no good for the industry, no good for artists or singers etc bar a select few (and even then it is arguable), and that is the view of many professionals out there now.

It isn't an opinion, it is just presenting how rife the industry is with this rubbish now. If you like that music being produced, fine - but that does not mean, the industry needs to function or be supported this way, to enjoy that kind of music. It is how that is presently sourced and production lined that is a big, big problem - and only a select few gain any real benefit from it.

This is not normal for an industry - if you want to help, get out and support independent artists and labels in the genres you like, you will actually end up with better music and a wider variety for it. That, I can promise you.

However to opine this does no damage, or to undermine the damage it does, really is not representative of fact at all. I am giving you facts (purely in the spirit that I can, and hope it can help artists and listeners create better relationships with the music they love), how you choose to relate them to "taste" is a different matter entirely. All I say is, keep your tastes, but try and pick artists and labels and support greater artistic integrity within your preferred genres.

You will enjoy a far more intimate relationship with your music (and often the artists) that way too

 

[Fredward]

I do love Johnny Cash's cover of Hurt. Not sure whether I would say it's better then the original, they are two different styles, But I think JC has a more impact on the listener.

As covers go. My favourite would be Turisa's Rasputin. add a bit of viking folk and a bit of heavy metal/ hard rock. violin solos ftw!

TURISAS - Rasputin (OFFICIAL VIDEO)

 

[Poisson]

Sorry Tom, but I've got to disagree with your choice of 'good' covers. Not because it's not my kind of music, but because they aren't particularly special. They just replace the instruments with heavy metal and the singing with screaming. It's the goth equivelant of happy hardcore 'covers'.

This shows how we differ in opinions then and in turn how all sorts of people's opinions differ.

The Sonne cover by Caliban I find rather good as it is fairly different from the Rammstein original which was industrial metal to Caliban's version which is Metalcore

Dispatched's Final Countdown cover I find rather brilliant to listen to, being 1000% better than the original in my opinion.

The Unforgiven cover is indeed not a million miles away from the original but I believe The Defiled's cover to be much much better than the original

You Are A Pirate by the Lazytown people is AWFUL. Really terrifyingly awful. But given to some Scottish Pirates, it is transformed into a rather decent song

 

[Rose Of Dawn]

Sorry Tom, but I've got to disagree with your choice of 'good' covers. Not because it's not my kind of music, but because they aren't particularly special. They just replace the instruments with heavy metal and the singing with screaming. It's the goth equivelant of happy hardcore 'covers'.

This shows how we differ in opinions then and in turn how all sorts of people's opinions differ.

The Sonne cover by Caliban I find rather good as it is fairly different from the Rammstein original which was industrial metal to Caliban's version which is Metalcore

Dispatched's Final Countdown cover I find rather brilliant to listen to, being 1000% better than the original in my opinion.

The Unforgiven cover is indeed not a million miles away from the original but I believe The Defiled's cover to be much much better than the original

You Are A Pirate by the Lazytown people is AWFUL. Really terrifyingly awful. But given to some Scottish Pirates, it is transformed into a rather decent song

You've kinda missed my point. I wasn't saying 'In my opinion, these songs are crap', but rather these covers aren't anything special as they are the same songs but done in a different genre. I love bluegrass covers of punk songs, which are great to listen to but aren't really special at all, for example.

 

[Meat Pie]

I haven't had a chance to read through the whole topic, so sorry if I end up repeating a point that someone else has already made!

Many have said I'm a music snob over the years, but I feel that unfair as my opposition to today's 'popular' music has nothing to do with the subjectivity of genre and style, or whether the artists has written or played on the track themselves, but everything to do with cynical finance suits treating the listening public as idiots who couldn't appreciate anything a bit more challenging or different. There's something very uncomfortable about an artform such as music, with all it's endless possibilities and power to really make us feel, being turned into a corporate structure, deconstructed into a calculated set of demographics, almost as if they are trying to sell an empty logo rather than a piece of art, rather than something for us reflect upon and emotionaly connect with, rather than music.

That's why I don't like the modern pop music industry. It's industrialising music and making it very impersonal, but worst of all assuming we're incapable of enjoying anything else. You can bet that all these music executives have a refined taste and it's their supeiority, their intellectual snobbery that makes me dislike commercial pop. If that makes me a music snob, so be it.

 

[Harv]

The absolute WORST for this kind of snobbery are people who like 80s cheese-metal bands like Iron Maiden or Metallica or whatever. They are the absolute worst for always talking about 'real music'.

I know we don't always agree, but this. So much this. That was just as fake as today's popular music - people don't like music, they like the people who make the music and hate to say it, but Iron Maiden and co. just put on as much of a show as One Direction and such.

Good post, Sam.

 

[SLC]

(Coming from a rock fan, though I'm pretty open minded and don't really mind a handful of pop songs)

I really think the close-minded fans if the popular groups/artists are the worst reason for music snobbery. As much as I dislike their music, all credit to Bieber and One Direction for becoming as successful as they are. But the fans really give them a bad name. I'd have no problem with the mainstream artists, it's just how they're constantly talked about over social media while other, arguably better bands go almost unheard of. In particular, the #cutforbieber and bashing of metal bands by 'directioners' makes me feel saddened by how music has become.

It's not only the 'directioners' and 'beliebers' though. A few of the people I follow on twitter are metal fans, and they constantly ask people not to judge their music while freely bashing 1D and Bieber.

You like N-Dubz? Brilliant. Sleeping with Sirens? Also fine with me. By all means, show your support but don't shove it down my throat, or this argument will never end.


Sent from Tapatalk, excuse any mistakes.