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Music Snobbery?

Scott

Scott

Former TS Team Member
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[This topic's been split from the Alton Towers Live topic so some posts might not be entirely cogent... To discuss that event go here! - MagGAGrathea]


Without wishing to derail this thread from it's original discussion point of the concert, it isn't far-fetched to call it music 'snobbery' - considering that is what your post generally is TheMan... I know that processed pop isn't necessarily 'music' in the truest form. People accept music in a 'true' sense to be totally created and written and performed by the same people.

Just because it has come from the X Factor does not stop it being music. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but it is still music after all...

Equally, I don't mean to come across attacking to you or anything, it's more of a general point in terms of musical opinions. Yes, it might be mass-market music and it might not appeal to everyone, but just because someone takes the view that processed pop is bad and talentless doesn't mean it actually is, and nor does it stop it from being real music.
 
Blaze said:
So, why is so-called music snobbery a bad thing?

"You have standards? Shame on you!"
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Because when it comes to music (moreso than anything else) the ones with the so called standards are the ones who are usually narrow-minded. Say I said I was a huge fan of one of the bands or singers on the line-up, and then said I hated someone like Muse. Somebody who has 'standards' would probably come in and tell me I was wrong for thinking this and that all processed pop is awful and I should like something better...

It's a hypothetical situation but is one that happens all too often with something like music.
 
My standards are pretty lax. Write the music yourself, perform it yourself, reproduce it live without miming and if you get successful, do it through hard work, not money or a tv show.
 
Blaze said:
My standards are pretty lax. Write the music yourself, perform it yourself, reproduce it live without miming and if you get successful, do it through hard work, not money or a tv show.
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But this is kinda my point... Just because some of these got famous off of the back of television it instantly means that they're horrible and ruining music... They might have worked their butts off and then gone to the X Factor for a chance at the easy route, they might have written hundreds of songs, they might have all sorts of raw talent. However because they're manufactured or from reality TV they instantly get written off.
 
No such thing as standards when it comes to music taste as people have different tastes.

I think U2 are terrible but millions love them, I don't think they have bad taste for liking U2. But being forced to go to a U2 concert would be my personal hell.

Music snobbery comes about when you won't accept other people's musical tastes if they differ from your own. Some of the biggest acts in the past didn't write their own stuff.

But this will be successful for Towers which is great.
 
I understand the point Scott, but I want to differentiate between taste and bad practice.

There will always be a place for some pop music, written by certain producers - I am not a music snob, as I respect all forms of the art - even manufactured but the balance is completely out of kilter, and is ruining and preventing fantastic music (of all genres, popular music included), far better in quality, from shining through.

Simon was clever, he realised people were having less time to make choices, so he made them and told people what to buy, and carved out a successful business. As purely a businessman, he is exemplary.

No one single person though should ever have that amount of influence over any industry. Who knows, he may even be a thoroughly decent bloke, but I cannot in way shape or form condone how he treats music.

I also do agree that this will actually be good for Towers and I have nothing at all personal against any of the artists playing.
 
Scott said:
But this is kinda my point... Just because some of these got famous off of the back of television it instantly means that they're horrible and ruining music... They might have worked their butts off and then gone to the X Factor for a chance at the easy route, they might have written hundreds of songs, they might have all sorts of raw talent. However because they're manufactured or from reality TV they instantly get written off.
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Doesn't matter. The moment you try to fastrack your way to success by going on tv and having Cowell choose your sound and your look, and has you doing sub-karaoke style covers, it's no longer about making music, it's purely about being famous and getting rich. You're cheating yourselves, and you're cheating hundreds of more talented people reaching an audience because there's no room in the charts and no attention, because everyone's focused on what they're being force fed by Cowell. It wouldn't be too bad if the people who actually put the effort in got the attention, but they don't. Olly Murrs or whoever simply rocks up to a studio, sings the lines written for him, goes home, and a team of musicians, producers, engineers and advertisers do the rest. I can not agree with that.
 
At the end of the day, if it has a tune that you can hear, it is music. People are free to like whatever music they like. Music is just one big pool of opinions, and many people (in general) do see their opinions of music as fact. There isn't really such thing as 'proper' music, that's just an opinion in people's minds.

What Towers have gone for is great. I'm not a massive fan of any of it but I don't dislike it either. And I'll definitely consider going to ATL if others are, as I know it will be a good day out!

:)
 
Blaze said:
Scott said:
But this is kinda my point... Just because some of these got famous off of the back of television it instantly means that they're horrible and ruining music... They might have worked their butts off and then gone to the X Factor for a chance at the easy route, they might have written hundreds of songs, they might have all sorts of raw talent. However because they're manufactured or from reality TV they instantly get written off.
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Doesn't matter. The moment you try to fastrack your way to success by going on tv and having Cowell choose your sound and your look, and has you doing sub-karaoke style covers, it's no longer about making music, it's purely about being famous and getting rich. You're cheating yourselves, and you're cheating hundreds of more talented people reaching an audience because there's no room in the charts and no attention, because everyone's focused on what they're being force fed by Cowell. It wouldn't be too bad if the people who actually put the effort in got the attention, but they don't. Olly Murrs or whoever simply rocks up to a studio, sings the lines written for him, goes home, and a team of musicians, producers, engineers and advertisers do the rest. I can not agree with that.
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So, the minute you go on a TV show, you lose all personal talent? You lose any effort you put in? You lose your physical ability to sing or to write songs? There's plenty of room in the charts for new artists and new music. Not everything in this day and age comes from Simon Cowell or from the X Factor... It's just that everything that gets into the chart is mainstream pop/dance/r&b and isn't necessarily to your taste.

I think a lot of people over-exaggerate how 'little' all these artists actually do to just try and make a point that they must be pants because they've been manufactured. Just because they've been told to look a certain way, doesn't mean they haven't written their own words or helped to produce their own records. It doesn't mean they have no input.
 
It becomes meaningless. The moment you sign up for X Factor you throw away all the effort. All the effort before signing the form goes out the window. As does your integrity. You don't go on the X Factor for the love of music, you go on it for the love of fame and money.
 
Blaze said:
It becomes meaningless. The moment you sign up for X Factor you throw away all the effort. All the effort before signing the form goes out the window. As does your integrity. You don't go on the X Factor for the love of music, you go on it for the love of fame and money.
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But, the thing is, it doesn't become meaningless. Your talent and effort and skills don't become meaningless. Your look and your sound might become manufactured to whatever extent - but if you make it from the show (and not even if you win) you still retain your voice or your ability to write or your ability to try and choose the direction of your records. Usually the winner follows a very set path, but after the first album it seems to be more of a free run.

I really honestly don't think the ones that are truly talented (read: the successful ones) go on the show in a blind stupor for fame and money. I think they go on either because they have a hidden talent they don't know what to do with, or because they are disillusioned with touring and gigging and writing music only to get nowhere with it.
 
Blaze said:
It becomes meaningless. The moment you sign up for X Factor you throw away all the effort. All the effort before signing the form goes out the window. As does your integrity. You don't go on the X Factor for the love of music, you go on it for the love of fame and money.
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And that is your opinion! I certain that there are many that beg to differ. Another example of opinions in music, and here it is being presented as a fact. Do you personally know the winners of say X Factor then, and they've spoken to you about how they sit at home all day putting no effort in whatsoever?

:)
 
What effort do you need to go on X Factor? All you need to do is sign a form. Doesn't matter what you did before that. Everyone starts off on X Factor in the same position. Then once you're on the show, you just sing one song a week in karaoke style with some choreographed dance moves and hope the public don't get bored of you.

Compare this to the busker on the street, the struggling musician who can barely afford to turn up to gigs where he'll get heckled and abused all night and won't make any money, the kid in his bedroom writing songs as a way to express himself. For someone to turn up on X Factor and say they just want to make music, is a massive insult to all those people.
 
So... unless you've busked, or gigged for years, or written songs in your bedroom, or done anything like that you can't be a musician? You can't be talented? You don't need effort to be on X Factor but you do need talent to be able to get to the final.

Once again, how do you know that any of the people on X Factor haven't done any of those things you described? How do you know that they haven't spent their whole lives trying to make it? Just because they go on the show doesn't then make them worthless.
 
Rob, you know what is coming next don't you?

What show would you like opinions on lol? XFactor? TheVoice? Haha ;)

The thing is I do come at this in a professional capacity, I am an A&R man! I have done it for many years in various capacities, mostly in the sense and context of being simply for the love of great artists, regardless of style, and certainly not for finance - there is very little about in helping real hard working independent artists. You have to do it because you care for great art and the industry. That is the only reward.

I do know a few ex X-Factor contestants, became good friends with some, I am not knocking them as hard working singers etc. The fact is, there is very little chance to do anything except via something like X-Factor which is ridiculous - and great talent ends up being left behind, in favour of more fashionable artists.

I disagree with Blaze in that artists do not give up their credibility when applying to x-factor etc, some just simply don't know what else to do, or think it is the only route into music. If all they know is they want to sing, and this is what singing apparently is now, it is understandable people will flock to it.

I don't like that one bit, it preys upon people whom are chasing their dreams.
 
Scott said:
So... unless you've busked, or gigged for years, or written songs in your bedroom, or done anything like that you can't be a musician? You can't be talented? You don't need effort to be on X Factor but you do need talent to be able to get to the final.

Once again, how do you know that any of the people on X Factor haven't done any of those things you described? How do you know that they haven't spent their whole lives trying to make it? Just because they go on the show doesn't then make them worthless.
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Not saying you have to do it all and for years, but yes, you need to do the dirty work before you can reap the rewards. You need to learn and develop. Just like in any other job. You have to work your way up the heirachy. You don't get that with X Factor. One minute you're in front of the producers, the next your in the O2 in front of 10,000 people and millions on tv. Not only have you bypassed the hard work, a lot of people can't handle that sudden change.

Doesn't matter if they have or not, they've turned their back on it in an attempt for instant gratification. That's a lack of integrity. I criticise bands like Kings Of Leon for selling out, but at least they built themselves up before following the money.
 
Blaze said:
What effort do you need to go on X Factor? All you need to do is sign a form. Doesn't matter what you did before that. Everyone starts off on X Factor in the same position. Then once you're on the show, you just sing one song a week in karaoke style with some choreographed dance moves and hope the public don't get bored of you.

Compare this to the busker on the street, the struggling musician who can barely afford to turn up to gigs where he'll get heckled and abused all night and won't make any money, the kid in his bedroom writing songs as a way to express himself. For someone to turn up on X Factor and say they just want to make music, is a massive insult to all those people.
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Can you blame people for going on X Factor though? It's their chance to have a go, it's there so why not do it? The way you describe X Factor merely your opinion and perception. In reality you don't know exactly what does on, sure some probably put little effort in but there will be other that try extremely hard as it means a lot to them. Those that put more effort in are more likely to be successful. What effort do you need to apply for a top job at a company? All you need to do is fill in the application, easy peasy!! No effort, oh wait, might be easy to apply but if you're no good you're not getting the job. It may not take much effort to actually go on X Factor, but it does take effort to be good.

:)
 
I'll leave this great bit of album art:
TheBoyBandsHaveWon.jpg


And Tom and Serge from overrated angry Oasis tribute Kasabian.
Kasabian - 'The X Factor Is Horrible'

(Shoutout to Tom for "break into Alton Towers)
 
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