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Ride Access Pass Systems and Disabled Access (pre 2024)

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pjanvil said:
So if we assume a 120min queue for Dragons Fury. RAP can get a slot 2 hours to come back. Meanwhile non RAP is in queue for 2 hours. In the mean time say Monkey Swinger has a queue of 30min. RAP user can comfortably walk there and back and have a ride then return to Fury. Ride count of RAP user in 2 hours: 2 rides. Non RAP user ride count in 2 hours: 1. That's equal access is it?
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Really it should be the RAP user can only queue (virtually) for one ride at a time (without swapping/leaving and re-entering queues). A good example though of how the current system is a mess.

Craig said:
I’m curious as to what other option there is in the short term?
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Yeah, that's the issue at the moment. There's no real good solution in the short term that will please all parties. Obviously limiting rides to once a day on peak days in the southern parks has been viewed as the most favourable option to ease the long RAP queues.

I feel that there are solutions in place, it's a matter of whether Merlin invests in technologies to get the RAP system working fairly and effectively again. Unfortunately, it's something that would likely take time and not an overnight solution. The system for now having an independent body to vet RAP applications is at least a small step forward.
 
On a side note, I must admit that I’m baffled as to why the UK Merlin parks seem to have such issues with RAP.

For clarity, I am far from the most well-travelled person on these forums. However, I have still been to a total of 20 different theme parks (although admittedly, that is describing “theme parks” in the loosest possible sense…) in the UK, the USA and Germany, and I don’t think I’ve ever been to a theme park with quite such a high prevalence of RAP usage as Alton Towers. Or perhaps not high prevalence as such, but I certainly haven’t been to another park where RAP usage is quite as overt as it is at Alton Towers.

From my experience, even Disney (in 2019) did not have overt RAP usage like Alton Towers appears to have. And while I haven’t been to Universal Orlando, SeaWorld or Busch Gardens in 7 years, I don’t remember them having RAP usage to the extent that the UK Merlin parks do either, and I’ve never heard RAP talked about at these parks.

I can only talk from my own experiences, but Alton Towers is the only park I’ve ever been to where you see queues stretching down the entire entrance street to get an RAP, or queues of RAP users built up outside ride entrances. UK Merlin parks are also the only parks I’ve ever been to that even have purpose-built RAP queue lines and entrances on rides in the first place, which arguably speaks volumes in itself.

The reason I single out Alton Towers on a few occasions is because from my experience, it is the Merlin park where the apparent problems with RAP seem to be most prevalent. I know that the issues seemingly exist to some extent in all of the UK Merlin parks, but RAP usage has never seemed to cause the same problems at Thorpe Park or Legoland, from my experience. I haven’t been to Chessington in almost 10 years, though, and I’ve often heard that cited as the park that struggles the most with RAP.

I’m genuinely stumped about why the UK Merlin parks seem to struggle so much with RAP. It can’t be a British thing because the non-Merlin parks don’t seem to struggle nearly as much. However, I’m also not sure that it’s a scale thing either, because as I said, I have never noticed quite such overt RAP struggles at the international behemoths like Disney and Universal.

I’m not sure there’s much the parks can do, though. I think they need to be inclusive in this day and age, and going down the route of assuming that people are abusing the system, or that people “don’t need it” is a very dangerous game that would likely result in unnecessary discrimination. You never know someone’s reasons for using RAP; I’m sure that everyone in those queues has a perfectly valid reason to need to use them.

It’s an incredibly difficult topic to discuss or propose solutions to, and I certainly don’t envy those in charge of proposing a solution to this issue…
 
Matt N said:
On a side note, I must admit that I’m baffled as to why the UK Merlin parks seem to have such issues with RAP.

For clarity, I am far from the most well-travelled person on these forums. However, I have still been to a total of 20 different theme parks (although admittedly, that is describing “theme parks” in the loosest possible sense…) in the UK, the USA and Germany, and I don’t think I’ve ever been to a theme park with quite such a high prevalence of RAP usage as Alton Towers. Or perhaps not high prevalence as such, but I certainly haven’t been to another park where RAP usage is quite as overt as it is at Alton Towers.

From my experience, even Disney (in 2019) did not have overt RAP usage like Alton Towers appears to have. And while I haven’t been to Universal Orlando, SeaWorld or Busch Gardens in 7 years, I don’t remember them having RAP usage to the extent that the UK Merlin parks do either, and I’ve never heard RAP talked about at these parks.

I can only talk from my own experiences, but Alton Towers is the only park I’ve ever been to where you see queues stretching down the entire entrance street to get an RAP, or queues of RAP users built up outside ride entrances. UK Merlin parks are also the only parks I’ve ever been to that even have purpose-built RAP queue lines and entrances on rides in the first place, which arguably speaks volumes in itself.

The reason I single out Alton Towers on a few occasions is because from my experience, it is the Merlin park where the apparent problems with RAP seem to be most prevalent. I know that the issues seemingly exist to some extent in all of the UK Merlin parks, but RAP usage has never seemed to cause the same problems at Thorpe Park or Legoland, from my experience. I haven’t been to Chessington in almost 10 years, though, and I’ve often heard that cited as the park that struggles the most with RAP.

I’m genuinely stumped about why the UK Merlin parks seem to struggle so much with RAP. It can’t be a British thing because the non-Merlin parks don’t seem to struggle nearly as much. However, I’m also not sure that it’s a scale thing either, because as I said, I have never noticed quite such overt RAP struggles at the international behemoths like Disney and Universal.

I’m not sure there’s much the parks can do, though. I think they need to be inclusive in this day and age, and going down the route of assuming that people are abusing the system, or that people “don’t need it” is a very dangerous game that would likely result in unnecessary discrimination. You never know someone’s reasons for using RAP; I’m sure that everyone in those queues has a perfectly valid reason to need to use them.

It’s an incredibly difficult topic to discuss or propose solutions to, and I certainly don’t envy those in charge of proposing a solution to this issue…
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Key reason why it's a merlin problem is historically and in some ways still, merlin take the lazy way to get the we are accessible box checked, they don't put effort into doing things right,
 
The reason why Merlin UK parks are impacted so much is multifaceted but a few key points are:

1) If your child is neurodivergent then theme parks are a fairly well controlled environment to give them a day out.

2) Neurodivergence is not overdiagnosed but there is a school of thought that suggests it’s over managed for the lower end of the spectrum (rather than give the person techniques to manage their condition there is a cultural expectation that the world changes around them).

3) Merlin are petrified of the Daily Mail news article saying they are discriminating disabled people since the Smiler crash:
 
Dave said:
The reason why Merlin UK parks are impacted so much is multifaceted but a few key points are:

1) If your child is neurodivergent then theme parks are a fairly well controlled environment to give them a day out.

2) Neurodivergence is not overdiagnosed but there is a school of thought that suggests it’s over managed for the lower end of the spectrum (rather than give the person techniques to manage their condition there is a cultural expectation that the world changes around them).

3) Merlin are petrified of the Daily Mail news article saying they are discriminating disabled people since the Smiler crash:
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Aside from the last one, aren’t those points relevant for most theme parks? From what I’ve seen, it seems to be an issue exclusive to UK Merlin parks rather than something that the whole industry is grappling with.
 
Matt N said:
From my experience, even Disney (in 2019) did not have overt RAP usage like Alton Towers appears to have. And while I haven’t been to Universal Orlando, SeaWorld or Busch Gardens in 7 years, I don’t remember them having RAP usage to the extent that the UK Merlin parks do either, and I’ve never heard RAP talked about at these parks.
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Usage is fairly high at Disney but only those with non-physical reasons need to use the DAP system to collect a return time. When they return it’s via the lightning (was FastPass) line, there is no separation. Those with physical disabilities are encouraged to use a wheelchair or scooter and many queue lines are accessible so no need to use a pass, the wheelchair just joins the standby line. So usage could be similar to UK Merlin parks but Disney got a lot of bad press due to abuse of the system so put in the effort to combat it.

Yes people can still “double-dip” and collect a return time for a bigger ride and then go do a smaller ride or show whilst waiting for the return time to come round, but my understanding is that for many parents of children with autism-spectrum conditions that is a good thing, trying to ask them to wait two hours with nothing to do wouldn’t work, but having some food, watching a show and then going back works for those families.

But as most people with wheelchairs aren’t getting the return times, that cuts down the number of people who can double-dip. Also as those with DAP are returning via the lightning lane (FastPass) line, there is an incentive for Disney to keep that line moving fast as it has a lot of people returning to it, if it backs up they change the ratio and take fewer from standby.
But to my knowledge there is no rule preventing an entire train being full of those with access needs, the batching hosts would be unaware. Unless you need the specially adapted cars on some rides where the wheelchair can roll into the ride vehicle.

Also the US there is no need to show proof of disability, it would be illegal to ask for it, so the question Disney ask is “how can we accommodate your needs”.
 
imanautie said:
Key reason why it's a merlin problem is historically and in some ways still, merlin take the lazy way to get the we are accessible box checked, they don't put effort into doing things right,
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I think this is absolutely spot on. The system Merlin have adopted is completely without nuance or refinement and as such is exploited to high hell. Couple that with a culture of 'take all you can get' amongst some and you have a system designed to assist a small amount of people being used and/or abused by a significant proportion of guest population.

As has been said many times the present system fails the very people it is supposed to support. Outrageous really that it's still showing no signs of being sorted.
 
The timing system should work so much better than other parks that just don't though.

Slightly fairer after all.

But UK wise Blackpool, Paultons and Mingo do not have the same issues. Is it because of the visitor numbers? Or that those parks limit (theoretically, Mingo didn't enforce it on Hero) to 1 carer? Or because they don't have a multitude of passholders openly abusing the system? Not sure how difficult it is to obtain the RAP equivalent at those parks for those without PIP/DLA.

Efteling I've seen it have a long queue on Joris and Baron. Joris because only on 1 side so it's painfully slow and Baron due to the batching methodology. But that's kinda it beyond DLP and Thunder Mountain, which I think is down to the popularity of the ride moreso.
 
I have seen a number of refusals for rap (or EVE as it was) at Blackpool, no actual evidence, no pass...no debate.
I have not seen such a blunt application of the rules at Towers.
"Special" access at Blackpool is nothing like the issue at Towers, maybe because it is more rigidly enforced.
I still say the sheer numbers of Merlin/Towers annual passes is the issue, not rap itself.
 
The numbers simply show up the flaws in the system. If only a handful of people are using it then 1) you can easily give them all near-immediate access to each ride and 2) it doesn't really matter if they do well out of it as the impact on everyone else is insignificant. If half the guests in the park are using it you will get long queues and everyone else will notice the effect it's having on their queuing experience.
 
imanautie said:
Limit it for all, or limit it for non.

Thats it.
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That doesn't address the point raised at all.

If in scenario being discussed the capacity issue is related to the RAP seats, and you can't just turn regular seats into RAP seats on a whim for evac purposes, the standby queue does not need restricting. To do so the train may well be going around half empty once everyone had used their single allocation just to prove some equality point. That is not at all a reasonable response to the fight for equal accesd.

As ever, people are looking for absolute equality in a world where with all the will and effort possible that is never going to be achievable when there are infinite variables to needs of individuals. That is why the law is written the way it is and adjustments have to be reasonable.

As someone who needs RAP, and I am not doubting for a second that you do so please dont take the question that way, what do you do when confronted with an hour long RAP queue?
 
pluk said:
That doesn't address the point raised at all.

If in scenario being discussed the capacity issue is related to the RAP seats, and you can't just turn regular seats into RAP seats on a whim for evac purposes, the standby queue does not need restricting. To do so the train may well be going around half empty once everyone had used their single allocation just to prove some equality point. That is not at all a reasonable response to the fight for equal accesd.

As ever, people are looking for absolute equality in a world where with all the will and effort possible that is never going to be achievable when there are infinite variables to needs of individuals. That is why the law is written the way it is and adjustments have to be reasonable.

As someone who needs RAP, and I am not doubting for a second that you do so please dont take the question that way, what do you do when confronted with an hour long RAP queue?
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Usually I give up...
And for many rap guests there's no reasons for assigned seats, which some rides at Chessington do take advantage off to clear rap queues at times
 
imanautie said:
And for many rap guests there's no reasons for assigned seats, which some rides at Chessington do take advantage off to clear rap queues at times
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But for many riders and rides they do, so in what way is your response that any restriction for RAP has to be reflected in restrictions for the standby ride reasonable, or sensible? Its a pretty indefensible standpoint.


imanautie said:
Usually I give up...
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So surely change that removes any liklihood of that occurance is a net possitive one in terms of actually facilitating access? It is much move comparatively equal.
 
pluk said:
But for many riders and rides they do, so in what way is your response that any restriction for RAP has to be reflected in restrictions for the standby ride reasonable, or sensible? Its a pretty indefensible standpoint.




So surely change that removes any liklihood of that occurance is a net possitive one in terms of actually facilitating access? It is much move comparatively equal.
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There's very few with an actually justifiable fixed seat policy, even vampires fixed seat is complete rubbish as they sometimes ignore it themselves.

And no as it removes options which if I wasn't disabled I would have,.
 
pluk said:
...and as a disabled user you currently have a system where you confirm you can't ride AT ALL. Baffles me that you'd be arguing for such a situation over one that is slightly more restrictive but ultimately gives access across the park at near parity.
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As I've said multiple times now, I think raps main issue is them not enforcing the current rules, not disabled guests liking one particular ride.
 
imanautie said:
As I've said multiple times now, I think raps main issue is them not enforcing the current rules, not disabled guests liking one particular ride.
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How'd you suggest staff, who are often very young and on minimum wage, enforce the rules when a large number of guests* will react forcefully and even abusively to being told that they cannot use the RAP system as they want to?

* - of course, compared to all who use RAP, this is a minority. But happens a lot...
 
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