Ride Access Pass Systems and Disabled Access (pre 2024)

[bluesonichd]

quiet like that idea, go to the RAP entrance first, get your wrist band scan, it will give you a time based on the current queue time, for you to go off and return at that time. If you change your mind and decide to ride a different ride, then you simple scan your wrist band at the entrance of your new ride choice and it will give you a new virtue waiting time while cancelling your previous virtue ride queue time.

isnt this what Qbot is at Legoland tho and they (the users) hate it

 

[ringo]

isnt this what Qbot is at Legoland tho and they (the users) hate it

Isn’t that because the system can’t be abused with Legoland method

 

[Trollydolly]

I did say that my proposal for charging for the RAP would be controversial. Even if the RAP was operated in a way to ensure that the RAP user would wait no more than the normal queue line, it will still get abuse as people will use it just because they can. The same goes for disable toilets, where there is a radar scheme in place, these toilets hardly get abused, but without a radar key, the disable toilets seem to be a free for all.

Even like I said, make the RAP free for blue badge holders + 1 carer, so additional carers and non blue badge holders pay the additional fee.

Over on the VIP thread, by their own admission, RAP users have willingly paid many more times for this for a VIP pass as the current RAP system isn't fit for purpose. I can see genuine RAP users be more than happy to pay to have a system that is workable as oppose to having a free system that is open to abuse by many. As a carer for a disable wife, we often pay over the odds for things to ensure that my wife's needs are met. An example of this is that we book the Enchanted village for our Alton stay, we could go for cheaper accommodation, but the fire doors and small lifts are no good for my wife's laid out chair.



I quiet like that idea, go to the RAP entrance first, get your wrist band scan, it will give you a time based on the current queue time, for you to go off and return at that time. If you change your mind and decide to ride a different ride, then you simple scan your wrist band at the entrance of your new ride choice and it will give you a new virtue waiting time while cancelling your previous virtue ride queue time.

Also having 2 scanners, one at the RAP entrance and the second at the ride dispatch, could also work out the actual RAP queue-line waiting time as well which could be deducted from the time out/virtue queue time.

The issue with the virtual queue before the ride is that some people who have more complex learning needs/ more severe autism etc don't understand the concept of time and/or require concrete language and actions so if you ask which ride they want to go on then go to the ride to scan then walk away it would likely cause lots of behaviours. Going to a ride and then walking away to wait elsewhere is too abstract. We're map holders and don't go to LEGOLAND for this reason. I've spoken to many families who now also do the same. The rap queue would drop but part of the reason would be that it isn't accessible. The other issue with this system which also happens at LEGOLAND is rides break down, so you prepare someone for the ride and then aren't able to go on also causing behaviours.

On the issue of paying for rap, I would for my family however I would say that if like my kiddo you need two carers at all times (merlin issue two passes with a hell of a lot of documentation) then the blue badge should be plus two free. We were hoping to get vip passes and willing to pay for four for our family because rap isn't working so yes why not, if the system worked.

In regards to the walk time, the whole idea of not being in a queue is to utilise it elsewhere why not use it going to a diff area. Plus how would you measure the walk time for other areas? If we walked it can take us a lot longer than 5/10 minutes. (I mean not going on rides just to clear)

In addition to the other suggestions I think all normal queues should be made fully wheelchair accessible and have benches the length of one side of the queue this would give those with only mobility issues access to normal queue and therefore would stop people hiring a chair for a day just for access. Also reducing rap queue. There is space in most queues to retrofit and as has been suggested the fast track revenue could help finance this.

With the language I think it's a personal thing, I have a close friend with a similar situation and we joke about window licking for example but if a stranger said it to me I'd be cautious, I think it's all about intent and you wouldn't go that far with someone you didn't know.

 

[RoyJess]

The issue with the virtual queue before the ride is that some people who have more complex learning needs/ more severe autism etc don't understand the concept of time and/or require concrete language and actions so if you ask which ride they want to go on then go to the ride to scan then walk away it would likely cause lots of behaviours. Going to a ride and then walking away to wait elsewhere is too abstract. We're map holders and don't go to LEGOLAND for this reason. I've spoken to many families who now also do the same. The rap queue would drop but part of the reason would be that it isn't accessible. The other issue with this system which also happens at LEGOLAND is rides break down, so you prepare someone for the ride and then aren't able to go on also causing behaviours.

On the issue of paying for rap, I would for my family however I would say that if like my kiddo you need two carers at all times (merlin issue two passes with a hell of a lot of documentation) then the blue badge should be plus two free. We were hoping to get vip passes and willing to pay for four for our family because rap isn't working so yes why not, if the system worked.

In regards to the walk time, the whole idea of not being in a queue is to utilise it elsewhere why not use it going to a diff area. Plus how would you measure the walk time for other areas? If we walked it can take us a lot longer than 5/10 minutes. (I mean not going on rides just to clear)

In addition to the other suggestions I think all normal queues should be made fully wheelchair accessible and have benches the length of one side of the queue this would give those with only mobility issues access to normal queue and therefore would stop people hiring a chair for a day just for access. Also reducing rap queue. There is space in most queues to retrofit and as has been suggested the fast track revenue could help finance this.

With the language I think it's a personal thing, I have a close friend with a similar situation and we joke about window licking for example but if a stranger said it to me I'd be cautious, I think it's all about intent and you wouldn't go that far with someone you didn't know.

The trouble is, you can't cater for all disabilities without someone taking advantage of it. My proposals were about closing the loopholes.

Even Legoland system get abused, as someone say's the Qbot don't stop people entering the RAP queue line before the time out and there is still nothing to stop people using the normal queues alternatively with the RAP queues.

The other alternative is to have a holding area for the RAP, so you scan your wrist band at the entrance of the holding area. This area could have seating or some basic activities that keep people occupied. Each individual wrist band will have a number and when your time is due, a number will flag up on a screen with a buzz.

To be honest, I visit various attractions, shops and the theme park industry is the only place that has RAP queue lines. Even at our local Zoo, if you have a disability you still have to join the main queue (yes our local Zoo does have attractions that you have to queue for like public animal feeding, road train, shops, purchasing tickets, food outlets, face painting, simulator). One could even question the need for level access at Merlin's parks. As a carer for a wife who is wheelchair bound, I do understand the need for level access. But for the rides, once you are in the station, the person still need to be mobile to step into/onto the ride and under the RAP rules, you still need to be mobile enough to evacuate the rides in the event of a break down. The rapids is not level access as you still need to be able to walk down and up the exit stairs as well as to climb into the boats.

Jess will love to go on the rides, but she can't due to her medical condition as well as the RAP rules (need to be able to walk) won't allow her to. There are lots of places that we would love to visit, but we don't because the facilities are not suitable for Jess. So we stick to places that we can do and avoid the ones that we can't. Our biggest bug bear is accessing disable toilets, most of which are way too small, or if they are big enough, we can't fit in them because the venue usually fill them up with various bins.

If the RAP is done in a way that it puts of those that are abusing it and effectively ran, then in theory, there will be less waiting around in the RAP queue line too, it should benefit all and not be an inconvenience, only for those that are abusing the sytem

On the issue of paying for rap, I would for my family however I would say that if like my kiddo you need two carers at all times (merlin issue two passes with a hell of a lot of documentation) then the blue badge should be plus two free. We were hoping to get vip passes and willing to pay for four for our family because rap isn't working so yes why not, if the system worked.

???

So you have an issue with paying £20pp for the RAP, but were hoping to pay £700+ for a VIP pass ?????

If you have the paperwork saying that you need two carers and you get a second carer pass for free, then you should be allowed a second carer for free in my proposed system.

 

[imanautie]

The trouble is, you can't cater for all disabilities without someone taking advantage of it. My proposals were about closing the loopholes.

Even Legoland system get abused, as someone say's the Qbot don't stop people entering the RAP queue line before the time out and there is still nothing to stop people using the normal queues alternatively with the RAP queues.

The other alternative is to have a holding area for the RAP, so you scan your wrist band at the entrance of the holding area. This area could have seating or some basic activities that keep people occupied. Each individual wrist band will have a number and when your time is due, a number will flag up on a screen with a buzz.

To be honest, I visit various attractions, shops and the theme park industry is the only place that has RAP queue lines. Even at our local Zoo, if you have a disability you still have to join the main queue (yes our local Zoo does have attractions that you have to queue for like public animal feeding, road train, shops, purchasing tickets, food outlets, face painting, simulator). One could even question the need for level access at Merlin's parks. As a carer for a wife who is wheelchair bound, I do understand the need for level access. But for the rides, once you are in the station, the person still need to be mobile to step into/onto the ride and under the RAP rules, you still need to be mobile enough to evacuate the rides in the event of a break down. The rapids is not level access as you still need to be able to walk down and up the exit stairs as well as to climb into the boats.

Jess will love to go on the rides, but she can't due to her medical condition as well as the RAP rules (need to be able to walk) won't allow her to. There are lots of places that we would love to visit, but we don't because the facilities are not suitable for Jess. So we stick to places that we can do and avoid the ones that we can't. Our biggest bug bear is accessing disable toilets, most of which are way too small, or if they are big enough, we can't fit in them because the venue usually fill them up with various bins.

If the RAP is done in a way that it puts of those that are abusing it and effectively ran, then in theory, there will be less waiting around in the RAP queue line too, it should benefit all and not be an inconvenience, only for those that are abusing the sytem



???

So you have an issue with paying £20pp for the RAP, but were hoping to pay £700+ for a VIP pass ?????

If you have the paperwork saying that you need two carers and you get a second carer pass for free, then you should be allowed a second carer for free in my proposed system.

Because one your choosing an expense the other you have no option.

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[Trollydolly]

The trouble is, you can't cater for all disabilities without someone taking advantage of it. My proposals were about closing the loopholes.

Even Legoland system get abused, as someone say's the Qbot don't stop people entering the RAP queue line before the time out and there is still nothing to stop people using the normal queues alternatively with the RAP queues.

The other alternative is to have a holding area for the RAP, so you scan your wrist band at the entrance of the holding area. This area could have seating or some basic activities that keep people occupied. Each individual wrist band will have a number and when your time is due, a number will flag up on a screen with a buzz.

To be honest, I visit various attractions, shops and the theme park industry is the only place that has RAP queue lines. Even at our local Zoo, if you have a disability you still have to join the main queue (yes our local Zoo does have attractions that you have to queue for like public animal feeding, road train, shops, purchasing tickets, food outlets, face painting, simulator). One could even question the need for level access at Merlin's parks. As a carer for a wife who is wheelchair bound, I do understand the need for level access. But for the rides, once you are in the station, the person still need to be mobile to step into/onto the ride and under the RAP rules, you still need to be mobile enough to evacuate the rides in the event of a break down. The rapids is not level access as you still need to be able to walk down and up the exit stairs as well as to climb into the boats.

Jess will love to go on the rides, but she can't due to her medical condition as well as the RAP rules (need to be able to walk) won't allow her to. There are lots of places that we would love to visit, but we don't because the facilities are not suitable for Jess. So we stick to places that we can do and avoid the ones that we can't. Our biggest bug bear is accessing disable toilets, most of which are way too small, or if they are big enough, we can't fit in them because the venue usually fill them up with various bins.

If the RAP is done in a way that it puts of those that are abusing it and effectively ran, then in theory, there will be less waiting around in the RAP queue line too, it should benefit all and not be an inconvenience, only for those that are abusing the sytem



???

So you have an issue with paying £20pp for the RAP, but were hoping to pay £700+ for a VIP pass ?????

If you have the paperwork saying that you need two carers and you get a second carer pass for free, then you should be allowed a second carer for free in my proposed system.

Actually no I don't have a problem paying for rap however if you do bb +1 you should do bb +2 where appropriate as I think we both agreed. If somebody needs two carers they shouldn't be financially penalised for this.

We too visit many attractions but do find that they accommodate our family (usually) not 100% everwhere to be completely honest but the majority. This is irrespective of what is advertised and I think generally the days of just wheelchair access has passed. We are also sensible and offset as much as we can ourselves, we do take responsibility.

I think you may be looking at rap from your own experience which we all do but in doing that your missing a key group or people that rap is aimed at "those who don't understand the concept of queuing". Holding areas I think Will work well for those with mobility issues as they understand what is happening to them. For those who don't it won't.

Resorting to not going to places because of lack of accommodations isn't the future I would like for my child or for us as a family. I don't want society to resort back to hiding people away. companies have to make accommodations for all disabilities. I fear your suggestions just accommodate those with physical needs or mild learning needs rather than the core group detailed above.

I do feel that by making queue lines fully accessible to those with mobility needs merlin would be increasing their accessibility and allowing more people access to the parks fully. This would also help stop people bringing granny for rap benefits or arguing at guest services that they didn't know when they hired a wheelchair that they would need proof after all they're using a wheelchair.

The current rap physical system works (LEGOLAND probably would also) if merlin clamped down and stopped giving rap.to everyone who sneezes.

I agree regarding the disabled loos. The changing places in at now are fab especially near the smiler and are radar key operated. Hopefully with the new law coming in there Will be more of them about too. When we did go to legoland before the qbot change I remember having to wait ages for access while families used them as changing rooms for the splash area. It used to make me so mad.

I find the majority of disabled toilets are too small and not enough have a bed.

While I'm thinking, charging for rap would likely be seen as discrimination. Charging for equal access and accommodations. While I would pay if it worked the theory doesn't sit well with me. Would we have to pay to use ramps etc? It could become a slippery slope and away to price out unsightly or hard work disabled people.

 

[Dave]

The issue with the virtual queue before the ride is that some people who have more complex learning needs/ more severe autism etc don't understand the concept of time and/or require concrete language and actions so if you ask which ride they want to go on then go to the ride to scan then walk away it would likely cause lots of behaviours. Going to a ride and then walking away to wait elsewhere is too abstract. We're map holders and don't go to LEGOLAND for this reason. I've spoken to many families who now also do the same. The rap queue would drop but part of the reason would be that it isn't accessible. The other issue with this system which also happens at LEGOLAND is rides break down, so you prepare someone for the ride and then aren't able to go on also causing behaviours.

On the issue of paying for rap, I would for my family however I would say that if like my kiddo you need two carers at all times (merlin issue two passes with a hell of a lot of documentation) then the blue badge should be plus two free. We were hoping to get vip passes and willing to pay for four for our family because rap isn't working so yes why not, if the system worked.

In regards to the walk time, the whole idea of not being in a queue is to utilise it elsewhere why not use it going to a diff area. Plus how would you measure the walk time for other areas? If we walked it can take us a lot longer than 5/10 minutes. (I mean not going on rides just to clear)

In addition to the other suggestions I think all normal queues should be made fully wheelchair accessible and have benches the length of one side of the queue this would give those with only mobility issues access to normal queue and therefore would stop people hiring a chair for a day just for access. Also reducing rap queue. There is space in most queues to retrofit and as has been suggested the fast track revenue could help finance this.

With the language I think it's a personal thing, I have a close friend with a similar situation and we joke about window licking for example but if a stranger said it to me I'd be cautious, I think it's all about intent and you wouldn't go that far with someone you didn't know.

If the pre-wait is too much you could always invert queue bot. So you go to a ride it has a 50 minute queue, you ride and the queuebot then deactivates for 50 minutes meaning you can’t enter another ride for that period of time. That way someone with Autism or other learning need where waiting can be a problem won’t have that issue as you won’t be offering a new ride option until the time has elapsed.

I would use RF ID technology to prevent people entering the main queue when they have stated they can’t (use a disposable wrist band with RF ID chip that detects if someone passes a sensor they could only pass in a main queue and that disables the RAP for the day.

My beef with the current system isn’t that it impacts my day as I visit often so not too fussed. It was when i last went on a busy day and saw the queue for RAP pick-up spreading right across Towers Street, with so many people clearly capable of using a queue and impacting the day for those who can’t really annoyed me.

 

[Trollydolly]

If the pre-wait is too much you could always invert queue bot. So you go to a ride it has a 50 minute queue, you ride and the queuebot then deactivates for 50 minutes meaning you can’t enter another ride for that period of time. That way someone with Autism or other learning need where waiting can be a problem won’t have that issue as you won’t be offering a new ride option until the time has elapsed.

I would use RF ID technology to prevent people entering the main queue when they have stated they can’t (use a disposable wrist band with RF ID chip that detects if someone passes a sensor they could only pass in a main queue and that disables the RAP for the day.

My beef with the current system isn’t that it impacts my day as I visit often so not too fussed. It was when i last went on a busy day and saw the queue for RAP pick-up spreading right across Towers Street, with so many people clearly capable of using a queue and impacting the day for those who can’t really annoyed me.

We've asked LEGOLAND if they would do this, many families have but they've said they can't?? I'd love them to.

Yes, I agree completely about towers street. There is a booth outside the park for day visitors near the bb parking where you can get rap or if staying at a hotel you can get it from reception now. I often think that if you can manage that you can queue. The other time I thought this was when wickerman opened and people spent 2 hours in the rap queue!!

 

[RoyJess]

The other time I thought this was when wickerman opened and people spent 2 hours in the rap queue!!

That's the crux of this debate, this undermines anyone that claims that they can't use the normal queue line as they can't queue for any length of time or have no concept of time/queue but yet will spend 2 hours queuing in the Wicker Man RAP

RAP is about ride access for those that genuinely need it, not for those that want to abuse it for a free fast track.

 

[Trollydolly]

That's the crux of this debate, this undermines anyone that claims that they can't use the normal queue line as they can't queue for any length of time or have no concept of time/queue but yet will spend 2 hours queuing in the Wicker Man RAP

RAP is about ride access for those that genuinely need it, not for those that want to abuse it for a free fast track.

Agree, It makes me really angry. Minetrain as well, we often look at the queue and walk away

 

[Skyscraper]

Agree, It makes me really angry. Minetrain as well, we often look at the queue and walk away

Yeah, the amount of times I've got to the RAP point on RMT and seen about 20 people waiting.

 

[delta79]

Yeah, the amount of times I've got to the RAP point on RMT and seen about 20 people waiting.

That our marker to try another ride. Well more that 4 people for 2 seats or 8 for 4 seats

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[bluesonichd]

The other alternative is to have a holding area for the RAP,

I just got that far and all I have in my head now is a big holding pen full of RAPS as they are picked off one by one to ride a ride

 

[Skyscraper]

I just got that far and all I have in my head now is a big holding pen full of RAPS as they are picked off one by one to ride a ride

The RMT's RAP entrance is essentially a holding pen.

 

[Benzin]

I just got that far and all I have in my head now is a big holding pen full of RAPS as they are picked off one by one to ride a ride

No different to some of the interactive queues at Disney, and with the right level of objects for those with autism and the like could actually be a good idea...

 

[Stuntman707]

The thing I can't get my head around is if you have no concept of time or queueing, the worst place to go to is a theme park. Queueing to any degree in life is unavoidable and waiting your turn behind people who were there before you is hardly an abstract, entirely logical concept. I'm not questioning whether or not it's a disability, I just don't understand how some can not grasp a basic system of fairness. If someone queue jumped in front of them for example, would they not think that was unfair if they were already waiting? How do you deal with a busy supermarket, restaurant, bank, stadium etc.?

 

[Mr Pearse]

I find queues the hardest thing possible with my autistim but I’ve been very lucky and just go everywhere I need to off peak in the worst case possible and I had to go to a theme park peak time then I wouldn’t go without someone with me and then I don’t ride many rides anything over 10mins is too much for me not nice but you learn to live with it I still could never bring myself to have a rap Im entitled and been offered one but I don’t feel comfortable with it I know I can visit off peak and that’s fine by me

 

[Trollydolly]

The thing I can't get my head around is if you have no concept of time or queueing, the worst place to go to is a theme park. Queueing to any degree in life is unavoidable and waiting your turn behind people who were there before you is hardly an abstract, entirely logical concept. I'm not questioning whether or not it's a disability, I just don't understand how some can not grasp a basic system of fairness. If someone queue jumped in front of them for example, would they not think that was unfair if they were already waiting? How do you deal with a busy supermarket, restaurant, bank, stadium etc.?

To answer your question my kiddo doesn't go to the supermarket, they can't cope. The only restaurant (if you can call it that) is McDonald's. Supermarkets aren't a neccessity. It is likely they will require 24 hour carers when they are older and unlikely they will ever live without support. Money is another concept which is beyond grasp.

Rides are amazing for people with sensory issues and actually really help. For those who will still watch in the night garden (and other programmes) when well over 4 years old CBeebies land is amazing. As a family theme parks are great as we my child vocalises (screams, shouts, stims) and it isn't really that noticeable likewise the flapping.

Waiting isn't abstract what is abstract is the LEGOLAND system where you are in a queue but not at the ride. It's a virtual queue. Virtual queuing after the ride is easier to manage as you can walk slowly to the next area, eat etc without asking which ride or saying which ride. I hope I've explained that well enough. In some ways it's easier to wait in a queue for a ride but it is usually the other riders/ guests that are upset/ inconvenienced at the behaviours used to regulate (flapping, echolaliea, self biting, head banging, stimming) families of people with needs like this are used to it. That being said we would prob only manage one ride.

Just to add people with needs like these can still communicate and are capable of expressing that they want to go on certain rides or to certain places.

As for the "basic system of fairness", what is basic to you may not be to others. Learning to queue isn't always a high priority and what is fair in life? I could write for hours on how unfair/ fair some things are. I would argue that if you can grasp that a concept of fairness you should maybe apply it. Possibly have a Google of equity vs equality.

 

[Trollydolly]

Also i do find it quite amusing that you're struggling to grasp the concept of someone not being able to grasp a concept.

 

[Danny]

Also i do find it quite amusing that you're struggling to grasp the concept of someone not being able to grasp a concept.

I can't quite grasp the concept that you find it amusing that someone is struggling to grasp the concept of someone struggling to grasp a concept.