DiogoJ42
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- The Metropolitan Line
Simple: the cars would self-right as the rotation slowed down. No one would be "stuck upside down". There might be a wait to lower the lift arm, but no one would be harmed.
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This is a popular topic that is fast moving Guest - before posting, please ensure that you check out the first post in the topic for a quick reminder of guidelines, and importantly a summary of the known facts and information so far. Thanks. - Thread starter Ethan
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- Favourite Ride
- Ug Bugs
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- Nemesis
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Ride Availability/Operations 2022-25
GooseOnTheLoose
TS Member
The gondalas, like Zodiac, were on rotational joints to the wheel. When the wheel is flat / horizontal, the gondalas sit at a perpendicular angle to it. As the wheel picks up speed, the gondalas fling out to be aligned with the wheel's plane.
In the event of a power cut the wheel would slow, or stop, and the gondalas would rotate back to their natural gravitational position.
Centrifugal force is wonderful.
Secret Weapon
TS Member
Thanks for the info. I had assumed that it failed to go upside-down due to wear-and-tear (similar to The Blade barely getting that high in 2024), but your explanation makes sense (I assume that Merlin got more cautious after the accident in 2015).
I also remember being disappointed when I rode it last year, as I'd always thought that failing to go upside-down kind of defeated the entire point of the ride!
This is probably why;
If anyone at Alton Tech services would like to get in touch about the installation/commissioning of industrial and intelligent UPS for this type of scenario (including all associated control circuits) please drop me a message.
The fact they’d put this out there is wild.
Keep up with the curriculum...
Centripetal forces are all the rage nowadays.
Centrifugal force is a pseudo force...
Allegedly.
Morning nits picked early today.
Dave
TS Founding Member
They have UPS/ generators but they are not allowed to operate except to evacuate on them.
Wouldn’t surprise me if the newer rides like Toxicator and reborn have better ones to avoid the faulting that occurs afterwards. Can’t imagine they would get the budget to replace all of them however, particularly when you consider the sheer volume of work that needs doing around the park.
Joel3
TS Member
TH13TEEN is now openTechies are currently smacking 13’s trims with a hammer:
Pretty much every big coaster has 2 main PLC's - lets call them A and B for simplicity. A and B both have separate coding / operating systems for safety, and each takes inputs from a separate set of sensors / proximity switches on the track. A and B's proxys / photocells may be millimetres apart, on opposite track rails.
There is them a third, simpler, computer system monitoring that both PLC's are in agreement with each other. So if a proxy switch on A triggers to sense a train & the corresponding switch on B does not trigger within a certain number of milliseconds, the PLC's are out of alignment. This leads to an instant ride stoppage, with all trains stopped at their next "safe point". On a two train ride [normally with no mid-course brakes] this will be anywhere between the start of the service brakes and the top of the lift - so the free-roll section cannot be occupied. On a 3+ train ride with mid-course brakes, the trains can be stopped here to keep free-roll sections ahead of the next [possibly occupied] block clear.
On the original Nemesis, the "monitoring" computer system was running on a 386SX computer. All it had to do was monitor fairly basic inputs from the two Allen Bradley PLC's [as above, both differently coded & switched] and give error messages "in English" to the ride ops / Technical Services team.
There is them a third, simpler, computer system monitoring that both PLC's are in agreement with each other. So if a proxy switch on A triggers to sense a train & the corresponding switch on B does not trigger within a certain number of milliseconds, the PLC's are out of alignment. This leads to an instant ride stoppage, with all trains stopped at their next "safe point". On a two train ride [normally with no mid-course brakes] this will be anywhere between the start of the service brakes and the top of the lift - so the free-roll section cannot be occupied. On a 3+ train ride with mid-course brakes, the trains can be stopped here to keep free-roll sections ahead of the next [possibly occupied] block clear.
On the original Nemesis, the "monitoring" computer system was running on a 386SX computer. All it had to do was monitor fairly basic inputs from the two Allen Bradley PLC's [as above, both differently coded & switched] and give error messages "in English" to the ride ops / Technical Services team.
danlouislucy
TS Member
Ride Availability/Operations 2022-25
Somebody on YouTube made an interesting comment that I hadn't thought of: what would have happened if Enterprise suddenly had a power cut whilst riders were upside-down? Unlike most rides, the riders weren't secured into the seats whilst upside-down, so would their heads have hit the roof of...
towersstreet.com
The fact that you think you have a simple solution that has evaded experts in the industry is arguably more wild
Who ever said it was simple…I know I’ve only done it for 12 years in various regulated industries.
But you do you…
Do you lack basic comprehension or are just trying to be clever?
Either way if anyone else play silly sod bingo or discuss how industrial power systems actually work, please feel free to drop me a DM.
Or we can all enjoy some of the other nonsense written in this topic.
tech
TS Member
It is very easy for language to overheat and become electric, both sides are making valid points, yes puns intended
As someone who works in the IT industry, UPS is often mis-understood. Whilst UPS is known as uninteruptable, in practice that is really not the case. They are deisgned to run for a "period of time", but far more importantly allow a graceful shutdown before the power cuts, or to allow backup generator to kick in.
The challenge at theme parks is the computers in the ride controls and safety systems are only half the point, and in terms of power, a very small part. The other half, by far the greater power draw are the motors, chains, brakes etc etc etc. Keeping the computers running is "simple", keeping the entire higher power consuming ride is "simple" but probably not cost effective. These days we can create huge reservers of power, using batteries and generators. It is a trade off between cost and availability.
The UK power network is actually quite good, and constant power is something we take for granted, as we should. Apart from the recent Heathrow incident, large sites like Alton Towers are well served with constant power, from multiple sources. The cost of putting in UPS for the computers, and generators or massive battery banks, is, on balance, not a good investment taking into account the good general grid supply. Backup systems of any type are based on the risk of something happening -v- the disrupting the event would cause -v- the practical reality of mitigating the risk.
One thing that is important to take into account is the safety aspect. If the computers are kept alive by UPS, the ride trains, if they lose power, can put themselves in unexpected places on the track. Further, the sensors around the ride would be regarded as "suspect" if there was a power outage. The only safe thing to do is to shut the entire ride down, even if the ride controllers were kept alive by short terms UPS. This would then require a full reset of the ride, relocation of trains to their home positions, and full retesting. There is no way around this, as safety cannot be gauranteed until this is completed.
It is a very valid question as to why AltonT did not perform this out of hours, or early in the morning after the power problems during the day. That is something that is fully in the control and remit of the park. Maybe, just speculating, the engineering team has become too small, or staff relations are poor, meaning goodwill during difficult outages is in short supply - again purely speculating.
From a safety viewpoint, it is probably best the entire ride shuts down and is fully retested prior to it opening, following a power outage.
I do agree that the statement from Alton about the power outage was a bit out there and "wild". It should have been better worded - the way if reads really shouts of, surely just install UPS on the computers. Which unfortunately and sadly for the ride to operate, is not the answer. To deal with the way that statement is worded is simple, to deal with keeping the ride operating for extended period, most definitely is not, in terms of cost effectiveness and safety. At the end of the day, this is a theme park, not a critical piece of national infrastructure.
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flyingguitar
TS Member
a uninterruptable power supply would be extremely difficult and probably prohibitively expensive and impractical, especially in the UK where power is very available and has little down time (I mean, the past like 3 years I can't recall this happening once, and AT are in a rural place, I haven't had a power cut for more than a decade)
the reasons why are simple, not just the PLC would need power, if you wanted it to watch the stopping of the ride at a minimum you would need the hundreds of sensors and brake valves to be powered, these are spread out over the miles worth of track, and consume a ton of power.
For started, we don't know when the power was turned back on, in a power cut you need to slowly turn back on each system to prevent overloading the whole system and causing a big problem, rides use a ton of power, and if the park is already closed it would make sense to prioritise switching back on more important systems (households) before focusing on AT.
In addition the rides could be extremely difficult to restart, depending on the system I would assume the ride probably won't be able to remember its previous state, or location of the trains (which would probably change after the ride powers down). restarting could require trains in certain locations, this could be difficult.
for instance if nemesis was just about to dispatch, they would have a train in the station and transfer track homed, if the ride needs the trains in the maintenance bay it could be relatively simple to move the transfer track over, move train 1, mover train 2 from station into transfer and boom restart.
but if the smiler also required the trains to be in maitanence bay, there are more trains and it may be difficult to get them back, if there was a train in pre lift 1 block, they would need to get it all the way through the ride. I am (of course) unsure how automatic this would be, but it could end up having to jog lifts to align catch cars and chain dogs (the smiler uses catch cars on its lifts), which could require a ton of people and a long time.
the reasons why are simple, not just the PLC would need power, if you wanted it to watch the stopping of the ride at a minimum you would need the hundreds of sensors and brake valves to be powered, these are spread out over the miles worth of track, and consume a ton of power.
I think this is more difficulty in getting them restarted. Towers have techies working throughout the night working on rides and repairing systems.
For started, we don't know when the power was turned back on, in a power cut you need to slowly turn back on each system to prevent overloading the whole system and causing a big problem, rides use a ton of power, and if the park is already closed it would make sense to prioritise switching back on more important systems (households) before focusing on AT.
In addition the rides could be extremely difficult to restart, depending on the system I would assume the ride probably won't be able to remember its previous state, or location of the trains (which would probably change after the ride powers down). restarting could require trains in certain locations, this could be difficult.
for instance if nemesis was just about to dispatch, they would have a train in the station and transfer track homed, if the ride needs the trains in the maintenance bay it could be relatively simple to move the transfer track over, move train 1, mover train 2 from station into transfer and boom restart.
but if the smiler also required the trains to be in maitanence bay, there are more trains and it may be difficult to get them back, if there was a train in pre lift 1 block, they would need to get it all the way through the ride. I am (of course) unsure how automatic this would be, but it could end up having to jog lifts to align catch cars and chain dogs (the smiler uses catch cars on its lifts), which could require a ton of people and a long time.