Ride PLCs and computers

[Skyscraper]

Following the discussion in the Duel thread, this one is for ride computer talk.

Let the geekiness begin!

 

[tech]

*cracks knuckles*

 

[Tim]

Don't know much about ride PLCs specifically but I've been building and programming Omron PLC networks for many years now.
I've used systems from the mid 90s and current systems so I can fairly confidently say to update Duels ride system would call for a complete overhaul. The old stuff can still work fine, but most modern system are a lot more network based. More importantly the software has changed completely.
If I want to edit one of the old 90s PLCs today (which I still occasionally do) I have to reinstall older software which although it works off a similar logic system to todays is not directly compatible.

 

[Austin Towers]

I cut my teeth on Siemens s5 before moving on to s7 and profibus etc. I'm a long time out of that game now though. You need to be working with it constantly or at least regularly to keep on top of it all.

I've an s7 200 plc in my garage that controls the garage door that I automated many moons ago.

I'd love to see inside some of the big ride control cabinets.

 

[Ciaran]

I'm looking forward to seeing the discussions on this thread, working in IT myself I find this sort of conversation very interesting.

 

[Alsty]

For those who're unaware of Irvine Ondrey Engineering, I highly recommend their Facebook page for control systems geekery. Look back through their posts for panels, cabinets, PLCs, drives and similar stuff.

They're also responsive to questions from likeminded enthusiasts.

 

[tech]

For those who're unaware of Irvine Ondrey Engineering, I highly recommend their Facebook page for control systems geekery. Look back through their posts for panels, cabinets, PLCs, drives and similar stuff.

They're also responsive to questions from likeminded enthusiasts.

IOE is ran by some seriously lovely people, and as you say - they’re very responsive to the enthusiast community and always happy to share what they’re working on.

They also have awesome swag, some of which I happen to be wearing today..

 

[Ash]

I’m currently working for a national turnkey engineering company (control systems/panels/electrical and instrumentation/mechanical/civils)

We’ve had lots of interesting work but sadly never any rides! Always fancied dipping my toe in as a Senior Control Systems engineer but never really seen a place to go. The best companies in the UK I’ve seen are Garmendale, Amusement Technical, Fairfield and Simworx. Im always keeping an eye on them and often wondered if they’ve wanted an project engineer with a cyber security slant (IEC 62443 Certified)

Towers are often recruiting for a PLC engineer but seems more of a maintenance roll with an electrical slant

Sadly I haven’t done any SIL (Safety) programming and I’m not TUV Rhineland safety certified

I’ve worked on a fair few systems too many to remember or mention, S7 200, 300, 1500, LOGO. WinCC, Flex, PCS 7, Simocode. Profibus, Profinet, Network design, LANS/WANS/Remote access, Redlions, SLC. Rotork DCS (Yes you read that right for those who know) Toshiba DCS. Wonderware. Fix32. I’ve worked on new installations, upgrades and replacements so it’s nothing new.

You have to know a bit of everything…

It’s interesting as I never twigged before I became involved in the industry that this was all PLC controlled, now it’s fascinating to see and read how it’s done by the best (Usually Rockwell and Siemens direct) And I have a new found appreciation how immense some of the systems are (Radiator springs racers and Rise of the Resistance) just technical marvels.

I’m sure roller coaster blocks now are tried and tested. Dual/Triple validated proxy’s, block sections. This is all now tried and tested. But some of the more advanced dark rides and coasters (Hagrids) have continued to push the boundaries.

As I’ve mentioned in the Duel thread, if it’s getting a refurb I’d expect to see the control system getting upgraded due to its age. Same on Nemesis. I would of thought they’re SLCs, and definitely due an upgrade. From a maintenance, futureproofing, safety, spares perspective alone. Anyone who’s been working in controls the past 2 years knows parts and spares are insanity.

From bits I’ve seen I think most of the control systems on park on Allen Bradley. Although from memory Smiler and Air use Siemens (pictures of panels welcome) Air is another ride worth a mention which has wireless connection to the crafts I believe? Which was complicated and ahead of it’s time

Nemesis panels are all in the maintenance room under the Station behind the shutters. There’s some pictures knocking about somewhere but I doubt actually inside any panels. Best I’ve seen is pictures of HMIs and the odd computer (which will usually tell you the age as well)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Alsty]

I am pretty sure Air is Allen Bradley. The control system was commissioned by Consign AG who do a lot of work for B&M.

What's interesting about the older PLC systems such as Nemesis is they have two PLCs running the same code which cross-check each other and shutdown if there's a disagreement.

The modern attractions such as Air use a single safety PLC instead. A safety PLC has two processors internally and does this checking itself. It gives the same level of safety without any of the extra wiring and complications.

There's a few pics of the Nemesis PLCs on Towers Almanac.



Nemesis of course uses 90s technology. Another thing that's often used now that wasn't available at the time is remote I/O so you don't need to route so many cables around the place.

 

[Ash]

I am pretty sure Air is Allen Bradley. The control system was commissioned by Consign AG who do a lot of work for B&M.

What's interesting about the older PLC systems such as Nemesis is they have two PLCs running the same code which cross-check each other and shutdown if there's a disagreement.

The modern attractions such as Air use a single safety PLC instead. A safety PLC has two processors internally and does this checking itself. It gives the same level of safety without any of the extra wiring and complications.

There's a few pics of the Nemesis PLCs on Towers Almanac.



Nemesis of course uses 90s technology. Another thing that's often used now that wasn't available at the time is remote I/O so you don't need to route so many cables around the place.

Yea they’re PLC 5s I think. There’s lots of cool stuff now with redundant hardware but fundamentally if there’s not to of everything (processors/networks/IO) there’s usually a single point of failure somewhere.

I’ve got some colleagues using some dual redundancy control logic PLCs with fibre inbetween and it’s some clever kit.

Looking at those pictures PLC-5 are now long past there use by date and were declared discontinued in 2017. I’d be amazed if/when the track is replaced if they aren’t swapped out for controllogix. Reasonably straight forward and you can convert 80% of the code automatically. It’s 30 years old, I’d imagine the panel needs replacing to be honest. Those relays would of had a tough life


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Tim]

While it's likely they'll want to update the PLC remember that the current supply issues might make it impossible! If Mack are worried that their new coaster won't be ready until 6 months after their intended opening date then replacing the PLC for Duel and Nemesis will have exactly the same problems.
If I were In charge of these project's I'd be seriously considering keeping the old PLCs just to ensure the ride will be ready to reopen.

 

[Alsty]

Or you'd just have ordered it already. I'm sure the project managers are aware of the delays in the supply chains.

Seems madness in my mind to replace most of the ride but leave an obsolete control system behind.

Looking at those pictures PLC-5 are now long past there use by date and were declared discontinued in 2017. I’d be amazed if/when the track is replaced if they aren’t swapped out for controllogix. Reasonably straight forward and you can convert 80% of the code automatically. It’s 30 years old, I’d imagine the panel needs replacing to be honest. Those relays would of had a tough life

Looking at IOE I think they tend to use the GuardLogix safety controllers.

I don't think they'd convert the existing code because they would presumably install new control panels with HMI displays, and you'd want the improved operations and maintenance features that you get from a new control system.

I recall an interview with Brian Ondrey (was at Consign, now IOE) where he was asked how they create the code for a new ride. The answer was that they take the code for a similar ride that already exists and then tweak it, rather than starting from scratch every time.

For Nemesis it would just mean Consign finding the code for a recent inverter with no mid-course brakes. It would then need little extra work except refine timings etc.

 

[Tim]

Or you'd just have ordered it already. I'm sure the project managers are aware of the delays in the supply chains.
...

Not as easy as it sounds. The supply issues are major, one of the parts I'm trying to order has been listed as 'minimum 6 months' for at least the last 3 months.
Like I said, if Mack are worried about delivering a ride they've been planning for years a project only recently starting with a far shorter turn around is going to struggle.

 

[Ash]

Has it been confirmed IOE are doing the work? I wondered if the park may be doing it in house or hired another contractor?

Considering Duel, Nemesis and possibly Spinball have had work done recently there will be some interesting spares and repairs knocking about

 

[Rick]

Who does B&M's control systems these days ?

I recall that there was a lot of discussion around Oblivion opening about how B&M had opted to do the control stuff internally and that was in part blamed for a lot of the early headaches they had with the ride. However, it is mentioned on Consign's website (?).

As @Alsty said, Consign were brought in for Air, which I bet was an absolute treat to work on ...

 

[Alsty]

I believe it's still Consign who do the controls for the B&Ms. As I understand it the maintenance of Oblivion's control system was handed over to them too, but I'm not sure when exactly.