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Russia vs NATO
- Thread starter GaryH
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shakey
TS Member
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- Wild Mouse - Blackpool - :(
Unbelievably brave.
People in Ukraine are being brave, but this woman in Russia chose to do this when she must have known it would probably lead to dire consequences for her.
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On sky news at the moment. I would link to FT source but you need a subscription to read it but here is the text:
The newspaper cites three people involved in the talks as saying the proposed deal, which Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed in full for the first time yesterday, would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join NATO and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey.
However, it said the details of western guarantees for Ukrainian security — and how acceptable they might be to the Kremlin — "could yet prove to be a big obstacle to any deal, as could the status of Ukrainian territories seized by Russia and its proxies in 2014".
And, the report added, Ukrainian officials remain sceptical Russian president Vladimir Putin is fully committed to peace and fear that Moscow could be buying time to regroup its forces and resume its offensive.
Indeed, as detailed in previous posts, Mr Putin did not signal Russia was willing to back down and insisted it would still achieve its goals in the conflict.
The US has also said that any success in peace talks would require Moscow to show "good faith" on the ground, which it had not seen evidence of.
And UK foreign secretary Liz Truss suggested Russia was not genuine in its stated attempts to reach an agreement.
"I am very, very concerned that Putin is playing a smoke-and-mirrors game of trying to claim that he is seeking peace whilst at the same time continuing with this appalling war that he instigated," she said.
Ukraine and Russia draw up provisional peace plan including ceasefire and Russian withdrawal - report
A report this afternoon from the Financial Times says Ukraine and Russia have made "significant progress on a tentative 15-point peace plan" that would involve a ceasefire and Russian withdrawal of troops if Kyiv agrees to neutral status and accepts limits on its armed forces.The newspaper cites three people involved in the talks as saying the proposed deal, which Ukrainian and Russian negotiators discussed in full for the first time yesterday, would involve Kyiv renouncing its ambitions to join NATO and promising not to host foreign military bases or weaponry in exchange for protection from allies such as the US, UK and Turkey.
However, it said the details of western guarantees for Ukrainian security — and how acceptable they might be to the Kremlin — "could yet prove to be a big obstacle to any deal, as could the status of Ukrainian territories seized by Russia and its proxies in 2014".
And, the report added, Ukrainian officials remain sceptical Russian president Vladimir Putin is fully committed to peace and fear that Moscow could be buying time to regroup its forces and resume its offensive.
Indeed, as detailed in previous posts, Mr Putin did not signal Russia was willing to back down and insisted it would still achieve its goals in the conflict.
The US has also said that any success in peace talks would require Moscow to show "good faith" on the ground, which it had not seen evidence of.
And UK foreign secretary Liz Truss suggested Russia was not genuine in its stated attempts to reach an agreement.
"I am very, very concerned that Putin is playing a smoke-and-mirrors game of trying to claim that he is seeking peace whilst at the same time continuing with this appalling war that he instigated," she said.
Alsty
TS Member
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- Fury 325
I find it odd how Zelenskyy now seems to be against joining NATO. I think he feels like NATO have just left them high and dry and therefore doesn't see why they should join... but surely after everything that's happened you'd want to join to ensure Russia can't come back for another go at a later date?
As for the talk of negotiations... I don't trust Putin at all. He said before he was pulling troops back but didn't. The cynic in me just thinks this would be a way of him buying time and allowing the Russian forces to regroup.
As for the talk of negotiations... I don't trust Putin at all. He said before he was pulling troops back but didn't. The cynic in me just thinks this would be a way of him buying time and allowing the Russian forces to regroup.
I don’t think he is in principle, he’s simply trying to ge through a deal.
i imagine the Ukrainians don’t either but if they can get a deal that doesn’t benefit the Russians too much they might go for it.
Did anyone see that speech Putin made today about the west and the rich Russians with their homes in Miami and France and calling them scum traitors?
He has seriously lost the plot. He is definitely on something. It’s his mental state of mind has me seriously worried about what he will do next.
Surely his inner circle, who enjoy the money and their places abroad must see how deluded their leader is by now.
He has seriously lost the plot. He is definitely on something. It’s his mental state of mind has me seriously worried about what he will do next.
Surely his inner circle, who enjoy the money and their places abroad must see how deluded their leader is by now.
Almost certainly but they’ve got to drum up support before they can remove him. He’s clearly lost the plot, which if one good thing means there is likely currently a lot of in fighting to take him down. I’d rather a military Commander who took him out rather than someone like Lavrov who’d likely continue the war.
KolonelKlink
TS Member
In the three days since you’ve posted this, we’ve had these from you:
I’m not trying to single you out, but I don’t know why you need to share every international newsline you deem of significance - that people can read for themselves on news websites or find on radio/TV bulletins - on a theme park website. For younger members like Matt who are clearly anxious about the current state of play, it serves little purpose - particularly when the discussion has no expertise or insight other than armchair punditry.
Would be good if the mods locked the thread for my money, but just my tuppence worth.
@KolonelKlink - it’s a discussion forum. If you don’t want to read this particular thread, there are plenty of others to read. Yes it’s a theme park forum, but this is corner coffee with a variety of topics, from formula one to cost of living squeeze. One of these may be of interest? Best wishes.
Lavrov I think would be the first to change his tune once Putin is out of power. Doesn’t his daughter live in London in a £4.5million apartment? Odd given his “hate” for the west
But that means we can’t trust him either. I mean we can’t trust a military leader either however they’d be in a much better negotiating position. I imagine Ukraine will be very wary of a cease fire because it might give the Russians a chance to support out there supply issues and then carry on there offensive.
as for locking this thread will achieve nothing. While I admit (and I hope he doesn’t mind me saying this as I mean no offence by it) @GaryH has a tendency to post some very scary opinions and articles particularly about the threat of nuclear war. I think he means well and is simply discussing possibly the most important and biggest thing to happen in my lifetime and many others. Gary, like me, is interested in the war and Russias threat to NATO and European peace, something which we are free to discuss at will on what is a very well and fare forum. This topic is both very interesting and very important. I enjoy debating with people in this thread and expressing my own views based on my opinions taking into account history. Me and @GaryH may not always see eye to eye in this topic but we’ve had some very good and informative debates.
At what cost though? Given how vanishingly unlikely it seems for Ukraine to have undisputed borders any time soon (which would be a pre-requisite for NATO membership), is it really worth more killing to protect an improbable ambition?
I didn’t realise until the other day that there was actually no prospect for Ukraine to join NATO for at least 15 years. Which makes you question for Putin - why invade now?
Was it he thought the west was weakened with Biden in the White House and particularly Boris in London. Maybe he thought Brexit had fractured the EU or that we were purely occupied with Covid.
Or perhaps he was doing it to try and build some legacy for himself before he leaves office. If the rumours are true he has something like cancer maybe he knows he has limited time.
I’m still not sure why he picked this moment to invade….
Was it he thought the west was weakened with Biden in the White House and particularly Boris in London. Maybe he thought Brexit had fractured the EU or that we were purely occupied with Covid.
Or perhaps he was doing it to try and build some legacy for himself before he leaves office. If the rumours are true he has something like cancer maybe he knows he has limited time.
I’m still not sure why he picked this moment to invade….
The cease fire may be an excuse for a pause to allow Russia to regroup and restock but we shall see. They can no longer afford this war whatever way you look at it so no doubt Putin is looking for a way out with a way which will allow him to save face.
Thank you for the comments regarding the thread. @KolonelKlink did make a valid point that there are some much younger guests to these forums which I have taken onboard, however, at the same time what is being shown and discussed on tv news at all times of the day is far worse at the moment and easily seen by children.
Unless a thread is full of flaming or bad language I think it’s good to have a debate with varying views. Shutting down discussion would make us no better than the Russian’s!
I think it’s a massive combination of reasons, here are a few that I think have probably played a part based on my own opinions (if they count for anything), these are just the reasons I think he’s chosen now rather than his long term goals which I think we are all familiar with at this point:
- Putin believed he had now cultivated a strong relationship with China which would mean any sanctions imposed would be mitigated slightly with China’s economic support.
- COVID had made the EU more divided than ever on many policies meaning it’s response would probably be uncoordinated.
- He waited until there was no significant problem with his army due to COVID.
- He believed that President Zelensky was weak and that Ukraine’s armed forces would collapse pretty easily. Perhaps he’d watched the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan and been inspired, thinking the Ukrainian army would fall in a similar way.
- He saw a weakened prime minister in the U.K. who probably couldn’t drum up much support for his sanction policy.
I’m actually younger than Matt as I’m only 17, however I like to think that for my age I understand this stuff quite well. I’m perfectly capable of having a debate but I note that not everyone is like me, if I have caused anxiety to anyone I apologise, I just try and relate my opinions to the facts hoping to draw a reasonable conclusion.
you took the words right out of my mouth.
Perhaps Ukraine won't join NATO because it is rather a long way from the North Atlantic.
By the geographic title of the organisation, Ukraine should not be a member.
The union of the Soviets was dismantled, but NATO remains.
I'm not arguing Putin is correct, in any way, in what he has done, but there is some logic in his arguments over the increase in size of NATO.
And Gary...nothing personal, but you did say you were only posting in this topic once a day, and you did say you were going to keep things positive in this particular topic.
Again, as I may have said in the past...every opinion is sacred, but sometimes, it is best not to get your information on current wars from rollercoaster websites.
By the geographic title of the organisation, Ukraine should not be a member.
The union of the Soviets was dismantled, but NATO remains.
I'm not arguing Putin is correct, in any way, in what he has done, but there is some logic in his arguments over the increase in size of NATO.
And Gary...nothing personal, but you did say you were only posting in this topic once a day, and you did say you were going to keep things positive in this particular topic.
Again, as I may have said in the past...every opinion is sacred, but sometimes, it is best not to get your information on current wars from rollercoaster websites.
As much as this isn't completed related to what you were saying, I'd like to see a world-wide NATO of democracies, to counter Russia, China and any other threat that comes our way but this is just a personal opinion of mine.
I’ve searched back and I can’t seem to find where i said that. If I did fair enough but I can’t seem to find it.
You ought to see the state of the European Broadcasting Union if you feel NATO is expanding beyond their titular remit!
Lots of interesting flights over Russia today which is trending on Twitter
Firstly, lots of private oligarchs flights leaving Moscow and heading for Dubai, maybe after Putin’s comments about them being scum yesterday?
And and then this happening this morning:
www.aerotime.aero
Hopefully a coup and Putin is going in to hiding and sent up a load of planes to disguise his real location…
Firstly, lots of private oligarchs flights leaving Moscow and heading for Dubai, maybe after Putin’s comments about them being scum yesterday?
And and then this happening this morning:
Convoy of Russian government jets takes off from Moscow, heading East - AeroTime
A large fleet of VIP transport aircraft belonging to the Russian Special Flight Detachment “Rossiya” took off from Moscow Vnukovo Airport (VKO) in the early hours of March 17, 2022. The detachment is tasked with transporting Russian government officials. According to Planespotters data, it...
www.aerotime.aero
Hopefully a coup and Putin is going in to hiding and sent up a load of planes to disguise his real location…