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Russia vs NATO

Can't see this ending any time soon. Putin is highly unlikely to back down unless he can claim some sort of victory. The Donbas regions becoming part of Russia may satisfy him and that is one possible outcome. But I doubt even that would lead to any sort of lasting peace.

The only thing that's going to make a real difference is a complete change of political landscape in Russia. It has happened before so it could happen again, but unlikely to be in the short term.

EDIT: if China suddenly altered course by condemning Russia's actions and introducing its own sanctions, that could be a game changer. How likely that is though, remains to be seen.

I find it bizarre that the mention of chemical weapons leads politicians to use words like "unacceptable", as if killing tens of thousands of people by any other means is totally fine.
 
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I don’t think China will get on board so to speak. It sees America as its enemy, and vice versa. It’s bizarre really how the west basically funds chinas military to use against us in the future particularly when it comes to Taiwan.
 
Wow, weird...allegations of drones dropping white phosphorus...I was chucking a good few kilos of it around yesterday, ingredient of lawn treatment.
Nasty stuff, I had four showers over the day.
But it isn't a chemical weapon...strange things the rules of war.
 
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GaryH said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Ukraine: Nato will respond if Russia uses chemical weapons, warns Biden - BBC News

The US president made the comments during an unprecedented day of emergency summits in Brussels.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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Saying NATO will "respond" does not mean he intends to attack. The word respond is political talk to sound more threatening. I would not read Biden blustering on about stuff like that as NATO declaring war on Russia imminently in the same way Putin spouting nonsense about putting his nuclear arsenal on so called "high alert" did not mean Nukes were going to be flying overhead anytime soon.
 
Big shift from the USA today - being reported on sky news they will be sending helicopters. Won’t be long before those migs are sent I think.

“It will include a re-supply of weapons already given to the Ukrainians but, critically, new weapons systems too, tailored for the fresh Russian assault expected in the east of the country in the coming days.

It will include 200 armoured personal carriers, advanced artillery systems, drones, and perhaps most significantly helicopters, filling key gaps in the Ukrainian armoury.”
 
Anyone else think things have ratcheted up a notch today? Apart from the usual rhetoric there seems to be a policy shift with NATO countries now sending heavy weapons to Ukraine, and Russia saying it’s now at war with NATO, all be it a proxy one.

As much as I dislike what Russia is doing, I also dislike the west trying to make Russia look stupid rather than trying to sort this out via diplomatic means. This started due to NATO enlargement towards Russia and the west not listening to its concerns….

The west continues to not listen to its concerns…..
 
GaryH said:
Anyone else think things have ratcheted up a notch today? Apart from the usual rhetoric there seems to be a policy shift with NATO countries now sending heavy weapons to Ukraine, and Russia saying it’s now at war with NATO, all be it a proxy one.
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The UN secretary general has been in Moscow today, that's the reason Russia has used language like that, to scare other UN members not to act. It's more about politics, the fighting certainly hasn't made a massive leap, mostly because Russia started off with complete illegal aggression in the first place.
GaryH said:
As much as I dislike what Russia is doing, I also dislike the west trying to make Russia look stupid rather than trying to sort this out via diplomatic means. This started due to NATO enlargement towards Russia and the west not listening to its concerns….
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The west isn't trying to make Russia look stupid, it is trying to save a country that has been illegally invaded by sending weapons and support. The west tried all the diplomatic channels, Putin wasn't responsive to any of them. Sitting Macron about 10ft away. Putin wasn't interested in diplomacy, if he is now I think the table would still be open, particularly through the UN.
 
An interesting story here with a somewhat misleading headline, but basically the chechnian leader (part of Russia but autonomous with it's own sort of army) are forcing Russian soldiers to fight whilst not fighting themselves:

MSN

www.msn.com
 
The more this continues the more I see that Russia is totally screwed in terms of its military and its future. It will only have its nukes left to threaten us with. Not sure if thats a good or a bad thing.
 
GaryH said:
The more this continues the more I see that Russia is totally screwed in terms of its military and its future. It will only have its nukes left to threaten us with. Not sure if thats a good or a bad thing.
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Both, good because when they start threatening nukes you know they are doing poorly and bad because it will scare people. Putin knows it scares people and that the media will start the whole "what happens if .... gets hit by a nuke" stories and it will create fear which in tern creates instability.
 
Curious…. How can the government Keep sending billions of pounds worth of military aid to Ukraine yet can’t help people pay their heating bills? Either we have the money or we don’t
 
GaryH said:
Curious…. How can the government Keep sending billions of pounds worth of military aid to Ukraine yet can’t help people pay their heating bills? Either we have the money or we don’t
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It's called conservative government, we've got the money, and plenty of ways to raise more while still making people's lives easier, I.e windfall tax on energy companies. Also money is allocated different and some military stock will have already been bought and was simply in stock.
 
GaryH said:
Curious…. How can the government Keep sending billions of pounds worth of military aid to Ukraine yet can’t help people pay their heating bills? Either we have the money or we don’t
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Must be that Labour had it all wrong and there is a magic money tree but it only pays for half price meals at the pub and war?
 
I wish Boris and Truss would stop giving it the Bertie Big Balls act with Russia and making us a potential first target for Putin to test out any new weapons on. Idiots. Also, as much as I appreciate the bravery of the Ukranians, it's probably time to just hand over the Dombas region completely now and call it a day. It will be Russian eventually, it's just costing billions in whatever currencies and many lives to delay the inevitable. Boris has been talking a lot of c**p today.
 
BarryZola said:
I wish Boris and Truss would stop giving it the Bertie Big Balls act with Russia and making us a potential first target for Putin to test out any new weapons on. Idiots. Also, as much as I appreciate the bravery of the Ukranians, it's probably time to just hand over the Dombas region completely now and call it a day. It will be Russian eventually, it's just costing billions in whatever currencies and many lives to delay the inevitable. Boris has been talking a lot of c**p today.
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Right so you’d rather we appeased the Russians because that went so well last ime. Also we need to show power otherwise Putin will think we are weak. I don’t agree with Boris in much but this is something he’s doing somewhat right, I just wish he was more credible and not a laughing stock.
 
It's not our war, for a start. Boris has no business talking like he has been lately. The Ukrainians have put up a good fight (with the help of money & weapons from all over the world). There does come a point however when you have to get real and see how many lives and how much money is being squandered with no further positive impact. That's my opinion anyway, I don't see the point of dragging this out any further now. You are absolutely free to disagree.
 
BarryZola said:
it's probably time to just hand over the Dombas region completely now and call it a day. It will be Russian eventually, it's just costing billions in whatever currencies and many lives to delay the inevitable. Boris has been talking a lot of c**p today.
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If the Russian army wasn't having to be so deeply engaged in fighting in that region they'd have plenty more troops freed up to go on the attack elsewhere. Not sure that'd be a great strategy!
 
pluk said:
If the Russian army wasn't having to be so deeply engaged in fighting in that region they'd have plenty more troops freed up to go on the attack elsewhere. Not sure that'd be a great strategy!
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Good point. However, I think they tried using troops elsewhere already but gave up as it wasn't working too well, which is why they've now concentrated their efforts on pummelling a smaller region which looks far more likely to succeed.
 
BarryZola said:
Good point. However, I think they tried using troops elsewhere already but gave up as it wasn't working too well, which is why they've now concentrated their efforts on pummelling a smaller region which looks far more likely to succeed.
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We ignored Russia in Georgia, crimea and Syria. All that happens is they get emboldened and attack another country.

The definition of madness is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome. I agree Johnson’s bluster is idiotic red meat for the readers of the Daily Mail and doesn’t help but sending support is the right thing to do.
 
I just hope that Zelensky knows when to throw the towel in, instead of sending his people in to die pointlessly if or when the time comes.
 
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