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Russia vs NATO

Russia did try to foster good relations with the west. It even tried to join NATO. But the west has constantly seen Russia as an insignificant country. One we can always poke fun at in films.

As for the relevance of the west previous actions and comparing them to Russia in Ukraine. It’s relevant because there isn’t any difference, except we portray ourselves as the good guys and Russia the evil. I can’t recall who said it last week but it’s a war of good against evil.
 
GaryH said:
Russia did try to foster good relations with the west. It even tried to join NATO. But the west has constantly seen Russia as an insignificant country. One we can always poke fun at in films.
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I don't disagree per se, but what is the solution now? It's no good saying we should have done X and Y as those moments have gone. How do you bridge the divide between the West and Russia now?
GaryH said:
As for the relevance of the west previous actions and comparing them to Russia in Ukraine. It’s relevant because there isn’t any difference, except we portray ourselves as the good guys and Russia the evil. I can’t recall who said it last week but it’s a war of good against evil.
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So talking about the Ukranian conflict specifically, whose side is the good guy and whose side is the bad guy, in your opinion?
 
Firstly, russia did indeed make a move to the west under Boris yeltzin, this changed when he was pushed out by Putin.
Secondly, an EU army might well be the only option however even if we were still part of the eu I wouldn't be in favour of us joining such a force. We could keep NATO alive.
Thirdly, @garyi am genuinely worried about you, you've used RT as a source before, please I beg do not fall into the Russia propaganda trap as you seem to be doing. I enjoy debating with you however I do think you need to be aware that Russia wants people to believe this to create division among popilations and therefore uncertainly.
 
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I do find it interesting how the West never treated Russia like an equal even when it tried to integrate into western ways.

Interestingly, Putin himself was actually keen to establish relations with the west and join NATO early on in his rule, and he was originally seen as a more liberal leader. However, the West never took Russia particularly seriously, even when Putin and previous leaders made efforts to engage with the western world. Could that possibly be part of what is fuelling Putin’s present anger and desire to invade Ukraine?

I’m not excusing what the current administration is doing by any means, and I don’t think anything the west has done to Russia warranted the extreme action they have taken, but I don’t think the west is entirely innocent in this saga either.

There are also increasing reports that Putin has grown increasingly volatile and paranoid in recent times compared to how he always was, which was a part of what led to this invasion. He apparently sees everyone as a potential threat, and has limited his inner circle considerably.

There are even suggestions that he could have multiple illnesses, with cancer, Parkinson’s disease and early onset dementia all being thrown around. If these reports are true, medication (e.g. steroids) could have altered his mental state somewhat and made him more paranoid and volatile in his actions.

As I say, I’m not excusing what’s currently going on by any stretch, but I think you can see why Putin may have been driven towards his current path, whether it was by alienation by the west, paranoia, illness or a combination of all 3.
 
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On one hand, the West has ignored the threat of Russian nationalism due to an archaic Cold War American obsession with "Communists = Bad Guys" train of thought. The US is a country where a rich persons right to save a few bucks on top class healthcare is more important than a poorest persons right to access healthcare altogether, or where a persons right to run around with a gun is more important than another persons right to not be shot dead.

With this back drop, it's no wonder the American government has turned a blind eye to the foreign murders, interference in foreign elections and abandonment of democracy and human rights in Russia; by a regime of staunch state controlled capitalism. Because hey, at least they're not "Commies" anymore and private companies in Western nations will benefit right?

All the warning signs about Putin have been ignored since even before he came to power, and were ignored again when he started this war in 2014. Shame on all our nation's for letting this pass.

On the other hand though, although Putin got his confidence from western tolerance of his awful regime, even apologists can't deny that he's added 2+2 together here and got a result of 72. He's invaded another sovereign country with a fledgling democracy, lied about it and spearheaded crimes against humanity. It's western incompetence that allowed Putin to think he can do this, but it's him himself who ordered it.

It seems western nations have been so hell bent on learning the lessons of the Cold War era, they neglected to learn the lessons from the second world war. Bad despot's do bad things. Nationalists will always be nationalists. Freedom, democracy, economics and all other forms of political allegiances are always secondary to nationalist causes.
 
@rob666 no need to worry and no I don’t read RT. But at the same time I’m also conscious of the propaganda coming from the bbc.

What’s the answer… there is always only one answer to war and that is dialogue. Why don’t Biden or Boris over to speak to Putin and be the bigger person and try to stop this.

Stop the whole NATO is a defensive organisation spiel and actually listen to Russia as an equal for once and find a solution to this. If it is a guarantee that countries on Russias borders won’t join NATO then so be it.

Wars always end with an agreement of some sort.
 
GaryH said:
propaganda coming from the bbc
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Are you being serious? The BBC are not as impartial as they used to be sure, however it is hardly propaganda, it is the truth.
GaryH said:
What’s the answer… there is always only one answer to war and that is dialogue. Why don’t Biden or Boris over to speak to Putin and be the bigger person and try to stop this.
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Macron tried this, he was ignored and put at the end of a table.
GaryH said:
Stop the whole NATO is a defensive organisation spiel and actually listen to Russia as an equal for once and find a solution to this. If it is a guarantee that countries on Russias borders won’t join NATO then so be it.
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NATO literally is a defensive alliance, it's whole treaty is about collective defence, it's literally what it says. Russia isn't an equal at the moment, it's started an equal war an aggressors must be stopped not appeased. Have we learnt no lessons from the past? Why should Russia dictate what other independent countries can do? It is illegal to have a sphere of influence which Putin craves. Why should one country stop another country from doing it's democratic wish? More countries should join NATO if they wish to, so that they can defend themselves against evil aggressors like Putin.
 
JAperson said:
Are you being serious? The BBC are not as impartial as they used to be sure, however it is hardly propaganda, it is the truth.
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How do you know it’s the truth when the first casualty of war is the truth. How do we know what we are seeing is true? The bbc is just a government mouth piece to ensure we are on the side of the government, to some extent the same as RT but not to the same extent.

This is the same bbc that warned us all Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. That wasn’t the truth but it was what the government wanted you to believe.

So I’m asking - how do we know what we see and hear in a war is the truth?

As for Russia dictating what independent countries should do….. I think they have watched and learnt from the west over the past few years.

Look - I’m not saying what Russia has done was right, but there is no clear and but good and bad, evil vs good, here like it is being portrayed. The west has been just as bad in the past and has fuelled this conflict in my opinion.

I’m just challenging the way of thinking we are being pushed into by the media in this country and the west to make out we are the good guys and have never done such atrocities in the past…..
 
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The BBC has editorial independence and are under seemingly constant attack from a government ideologically opposed to their continued existence - hardly a government mouthpiece.

In the lead up to the Iraq war they naturally reported on the whole WMD thing as not only was it clearly in the public interest but it was also something they had reasonable grounds to believe was true, given that Blair was giving speeches to the commons quoting the infamous "within 45 minutes" line from the intelligence dossier. Later on they'd come under enormous scrutiny for daring to suggest that line might not have been 100% truthful.

Whatever your views on them as a news outlet, the suggestion that they're somehow similar to a state-controlled broadcaster in a country with almost no press freedom is entirely unfounded.
 
GaryH said:
If it is a guarantee that countries on Russias borders won’t join NATO then so be it.
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What? So Russia should be allowed to dictate what an independent state it happens to boarder should or should not do? That then would not truly be an independent state and Russia has already won the start of its intended control over its old territory.

You seem to be viewing this only from the point of Nato, which you have somehow decided is bent on enlisting certain countries to its number, rather than from the point of view of nations who want to join. Nato does not take over countries, it allows them to join.

Who are Russia to tell any other sovereign state what they can and can't do? If Europe now told us we are not allowed to be part of any like organisation would that be OK? 'So be it' we would say, would we? No.

An utterly bizarre train of thought.
 
GaryH said:
@rob666 no need to worry and no I don’t read RT. But at the same time I’m also conscious of the propaganda coming from the bbc.

What’s the answer… there is always only one answer to war and that is dialogue. Why don’t Biden or Boris over to speak to Putin and be the bigger person and try to stop this.

Stop the whole NATO is a defensive organisation spiel and actually listen to Russia as an equal for once and find a solution to this. If it is a guarantee that countries on Russias borders won’t join NATO then so be it.

Wars always end with an agreement of some sort.
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Who said I was worried, and I don't care what you read.
I disagree with most of what you are saying...but wars always end with an agreement of some sort...well...The Troubles, Central Africa and the Middle East come to mind.
 
Ok so one question.

If Russia, China, Cuba and Iraq formed a “defensive” military pact and stationed their troops and weapons on the border with the USA how do you think they would react? We know how they react, back in the Cuban missile crisis when they threatened to invade Cuba.

So what right does Nato have to do the same? It’s defensive in the western world eyes, but not to other countries it might not be and we need to take those concerns into account.
 
GaryH said:
Ok so one question.

If Russia, China, Cuba and Iraq formed a “defensive” military pact and stationed their troops and weapons on the border with the USA how do you think they would react? We know how they react, back in the Cuban missile crisis when they threatened to invade Cuba. .
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Well to come up with a reasonable comparison with Russia and Ukraine, using the above situation.... I doubt very much if the USA would react by invading Mexico , bombing it and killing thousands of innocent people.

Team edit: swearing removed.


Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 
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rob666 said:
Defensive as in Russia defending it's territory by bombing Ukraine?
Other countries may not see that as defensive either.
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And the USA and uk (big players in NATO) attacking other countries over the years but that’s ok I guess because we are the good guys. Russia feels it had to attack Ukraine. It gave plenty of warning over the past 8 years that it would not allow Ukraine to join nato for its own national security. The west ignored them. This is the result. Russia has said enough.

We can go over this for weeks months years, my view is this war could have been prevented of the west has listened to Russia, and my personal view is NATO should not be expanding right up to Russias borders, defensive or not.

Everyone else can have their own views, but while I don’t believe all from Russia, I also don’t believe everything that comes from the uk media or military and I think we are just as much to blame in all of this.

I respect every one else’s views but that me my own.

As for Mexico - the USA doesn’t have a great deal of love for Mexico , they wanted that great big wall to be built remember, and if it came to the crunch, I wouldn’t put it past the USA to send troops in to Mexico. The USA is the worlds policeman, it knows no boundaries. You only have to look at its past record to see that.
 
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