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Russia vs NATO

GaryH said:
It gave plenty of warning over the past 8 years that it would not allow Ukraine to join nato for its own national security. The west ignored them. This is the result. Russia has said enough.
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Again, it is unequivocally not Russias business if another nation wants to join NATO, or any other organisation. Russias actions since have shown exactly why those bordering nations really should be looking to join.

What that nation actually does is another matter; the Cuban misile crisis which you use as a comparison was based on countries actually building nukes pointing at each other. Quite a different thing and clearly worthy of action on both sides
 
pluk said:
Again, it is unequivocally not Russias business if another nation wants to join NATO, or any other organisation.
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Says the west……

Again, if Russia feels its National security is at risk, why shouldn’t the west look to work with Russia to address it. It’s ok for us to keep saying nato is defensive. We know that, but Russia feels otherwise.

NATO has expanded hugely towards Russia over the years until it is literally on its borders. I feel Russia does have a right just as any other country does to raise concerns if it feels threatened.
 
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pluk said:
=/= invading and killing everyone.
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Just as the west has done over the years so how does that make us any different to them??????

We invaded Iraq, against the UN Security Council, and thousands of civilians were killed but classed as collateral damage.

Again, while I don’t agree with what Russia has done, I challenge why it’s ok for the west to invade countries and kill innocents and that’s seen as acceptable.

I just hope this whole thing finishes very soon for the people of Ukraine and the young lads being conscripted into the Russian army going to their deaths. It’s about time the world learnt to all get on with each other after two world wars.
 
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GaryH said:
Just as the west has done over the years so how does that make us any different to them??????
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No relevance to my point about your terminology.

Starting war isn't acceptable when we've done it, it isn't acceptable now Russia has done it. What's your point?

It's really quite simple. There are certain acts which are defacto declarations of war, there are punitive acts you can place upon another nation which are not. If Russia doesn't want other countries in Nato, or any other organisation, they can tell them there would be repercussions such as restrictions on trade and cooperation on other matters and than that country can make a choice om which basket to put their eggs in. This is not equivocal with starting war.
 
I’ll just park this here with this excellent article which sums up what I’ve been trying to say. I respect everyone’s views but I also believe in mine. I still think this whole thing could have been prevented and blame lies not just with Russia but the west too.

www.msnbc.com

Opinion | The U.S. made a huge mistake in the run-up to the Russian invasion

The U.S. refused to reconsider Ukraine's NATO status as Putin threatened war. Experts say that was a huge mistake.
www.msnbc.com www.msnbc.com
 
GaryH said:
Just as the west has done over the years so how does that make us any different to them??????

We invaded Iraq, against the UN Security Council, and thousands of civilians were killed but classed as collateral damage.

Again, while I don’t agree with what Russia has done, I challenge why it’s ok for the west to invade countries and kill innocents and that’s seen as acceptable.

I just hope this whole thing finishes very soon for the people of Ukraine and the young lads being conscripted into the Russian army going to their deaths. It’s about time the world learnt to all get on with each other after two world wars.
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We stopped building empires the best part of a century ago, Putin has just started.
The only person that can stop this "defence" is the warring idiot that started it...Putin.
He and he alone can stop the mass murder of innocents, and his actions can't be defended or justified.
He has a history as a tyrant...this isn't his first land grab, Georgia, Chechenya, Crimea, to list the first three.
Mobster land grab because the thug has got away with it in the past, nothing more.
 
@GaryH you seem to be suggesting that because the West has been involved in wars that some might consider unjust or inappropriate, that somehow excuses or validates Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Just because the West has screwed up in the past doesn't mean Putin gets a free pass to do the same. Every conflict should be judged individually on its merits.

Invading a sovereign country is still an act of aggression and something that can never be acceptable, regardless of who does it.

As for NATO expansion... if you were a Finnish citizen now, would you be more or less inclined to join NATO knowing there's an unhinged aggressor on your doorstep?
 
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Alsty said:
@GaryH you seem to be suggesting that because the West has been involved in wars that some might consider unjust or inappropriate, that somehow excuses or validates Putin's invasion of Ukraine. Just because the West has screwed up in the past doesn't mean Putin gets a free pass to do the same. Every conflict should be judged individually on its merits.

Invading a sovereign country is still an act of aggression and something that can never be acceptable, regardless of who does it.

As for NATO expansion... if you were a Finnish citizen now, would you be more or less inclined to join NATO knowing there's an unhinged aggressor on your doorstep?
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No, im not justifying it. What I’m saying is going back to my initial post that the west is portraying itself as the good hits and Russia the bad.

What I’ve been saying in comparison is that we have done pretty much the same as Russia has done in Ukraine. We have illegally invaded counties, started wars, killed civilians. We have also ignored the concerns of Russia over the years.

I’m just making the point we are not the good guys. Far from it in the same way Russia is the bad guy in Ukraine at the moment.
 
We have done in the past what Russia is doing now.
Agreed.
We don't do it anymore.
We know our Imperial past was wrong.

In what way are we wrong in challenging Putin's current actions of calculated, premeditated mass murder of innocent men, women and children over a sustained period?
How can you support Russia in this position?
The rest of the world, not just the west, has not given Putin any concrete support in what he is doing.
All international organisations have repeated requests, direct to Putin, for the war to stop.
But he continues to murder.
Don't put any blame on the west for this...this is Putin's war, and Putin's war alone.
 
rob666 said:
We have done in the past what Russia is doing now.
Agreed.
We don't do it anymore.
We know our Imperial past was wrong.

In what way are we wrong in challenging Putin's current actions of calculated, premeditated mass murder of innocent men, women and children over a sustained period?
How can you support Russia in this position?
The rest of the world, not just the west, has not given Putin any concrete support in what he is doing.
All international organisations have repeated requests, direct to Putin, for the war to stop.
But he continues to murder.
Don't put any blame on the west for this...this is Putin's war, and Putin's war alone.
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I don’t support Russia. What I am saying is the war could have been prevented and I disagree with your last paragraph - I feel that the west is also to blame in this. If you haven’t already have a read of that article I posted.

Alsty said:
The West have been the bad guys in the past. Russia are the bad guys this time.
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I agree. I never said they weren’t.
 
@GaryH you are denying what you said, I presume you've changed your mind,m that the west are not the bad guys here by 'ignoring' Russia? Russia isn't an equal because it choses to be our enemy. Once Putin is gone and this war is over I'd love for us to foster good realtions with Russia which could well become one of the worlds biggest economies but at the moment that's a long way off.
 
JAperson said:
@GaryH you are denying what you said, I presume you've changed your mind,m that the west are not the bad guys here by 'ignoring' Russia? Russia isn't an equal because it choses to be our enemy. Once Putin is gone and this war is over I'd love for us to foster good realtions with Russia which could well become one of the worlds biggest economies but at the moment that's a long way off.
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No I’m not. I said all along that I believed this war could have been prevented. That the west is not innocent in all of this. What I also fair that western ignorance and arrogance over the years has pushed Russia into a corner and we should have been more open to trying to reach an agreement with Russia, but, as that article I linked to pointed out, the USA didn’t want to make allowances for Russia.

I’ve also said that this isn’t good vs evil as others have made out and read the background on this and what’s been happening over the past 7/8 years and you’ll realise that opportunities were missed which could have prevented this.

And once putin is gone don’t expect there to be good relations. Despite this being Putin’s war, unless the west talks and tajes Russia and its security as an equal regardless who is next in power, then relations will remain extremely hostile for the future.
 
Ukraine did nothing wrong. Wether they were to join NATO or not is their decision. ROI are in the EU, we aren't, so now we can feel threatened and level Dublin? No.
 
@GaryH , perhaps you could tell us what the west could have done to prevent Russia waging war ?

You seem to be advocating that a weaker strategy from the west would some how prevented the invasion ?

EDIT: He did not invade because he felt threatened by the west. He invaded because he did not feel threatened by them.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk
 
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What the west should have done is agree a security pact with Ukraine in the event of any attack by Russia in return for an agreement that Ukraine would not join NATO. Basically the same as what is being advocated now in any peace agreement.

If you read the article I linked to, you’ll actually see this was something that was discussed years ago but the USA dismissed it and took a gamble Russia wouldn’t attack.

Not so much a weaker strategy from the west but more a mutual respect and understanding which satisfies both parties.
 
There's currently lots of speculation about whether there is a coup attempt about to take place in Russia. My money would be on probably yes, but when I don't know, I'd say it's not really close but will probably happen before the end of the year, but that's just personal speculation.
We've had experts talking about this, including the intelligence chief who predicted when the war started, now that doesn't mean he's got this right however it does make it more likely. But if Putin knows an attempt is on the way he may start going on the purge, whether a coup can survive anyone who's remotely against Putin being killed I don't know, but I'd rather we didn't find out.

In other news Putin's forces still cannot take Donbass and have failed to secure Kharakiv, instead being pushed back to the Russian border.
 
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