TBC: SW9 Speculation

[Benjsh]

Merlin are going to pay for 3 B&M's all within the next 4 years and also sign up to a complete Nemesis retrack too? Who are they kidding? Hahahahaha

I'm one of the biggest B&M fanboys there are so this would make me very happy indeed but I'm not buying it one bit. It's absolute nonsense. No way they can afford two hypers, an Invert retrack and also a smaller prototype launch coaster too all within 4 years.

 

[Matt N]

Merlin are going to pay for 3 B&M's all within the next 4 years and also sign up to a complete Nemesis retrack too? Who are they kidding? Hahahahaha

I'm one of the biggest B&M fanboys there are so this would make me very happy indeed but I'm not buying it one bit. It's absolute nonsense. No way they can afford two hypers, an Invert retrack and also a smaller prototype launch coaster too all within 4 years.

Multipack deals often tend to reduce the price by a fair bit; the more rides purchased, the bigger the saving! Take Six Flags, for instance; many would probably have said that an Oceaneering dark ride system would have been way too expensive for Six Flags to afford, and if bought individually, they would probably be right. However, because they bought many Justice League dark rides, the price per ride became far more palatable.

Merlin has also done this with B&M before; it’s worth remembering that Raptor, Krake, Swarm, Flug der Damonen and Oblivion the Black Hole were all installed between 2011 and 2015, so I don’t think it would necessarily be inconceivable for quite a few B&M rides to be built within a short timeframe once again. The first 3 were all built in 2011 and 2012, so the timeframe was quite similar to that suggested in the video (The Nemesis retrack never had a particular year allotted to it, so that could be a bit further down the line). I don’t know about you, but the fact that Chessington and numerous Chinese Legolands are confirmed to be receiving B&M rides certainly points to a similar deal having been signed again, if you ask me.

Merlin may well have loosened the purse strings on CAPEX now they’re private again. Many said that Chessington’s new coaster definitely wouldn’t be a B&M because Merlin were “too cheap” to fork out for a B&M, but look how that turned out!

I understand people’s skepticism, but my point is; anything could happen.

 

[Matt.GC]

Multipack deals often tend to reduce the price by a fair bit; the more rides purchased, the bigger the saving! Take Six Flags, for instance; many would probably have said that an Oceaneering dark ride system would have been way too expensive for Six Flags to afford, and if bought individually, they would probably be right. However, because they bought many Justice League dark rides, the price per ride became far more palatable.

Merlin has also done this with B&M before; it’s worth remembering that Raptor, Krake, Swarm, Flug der Damonen and Oblivion the Black Hole were all installed between 2011 and 2015, so I don’t think it would necessarily be inconceivable for quite a few B&M rides to be built within a short timeframe once again. The first 3 were all built in 2011 and 2012, so the timeframe was quite similar to that suggested in the video (The Nemesis retrack never had a particular year allotted to it, so that could be a bit further down the line). I don’t know about you, but the fact that Chessington and numerous Chinese Legolands are confirmed to be receiving B&M rides certainly points to a similar deal having been signed again, if you ask me.

Merlin may well have loosened the purse strings on CAPEX now they’re private again. Many said that Chessington’s new coaster definitely wouldn’t be a B&M because Merlin were “too cheap” to fork out for a B&M, but look how that turned out!

I understand people’s skepticism, but my point is; anything could happen.

I do understand where you're coming from. But most of those examples are diddy little things, Swarm and Krake in particular. If the new Chessington winger is a B&M as part of a wider deal, it's tiny, ill thought out and depressingly woeful in terms of capacity. It's not inconceivable for Thorpe and Towers to get B&M's over the next few years by any means.

But we're talking about 2 hypers here - in the UK - one of which being cross valley at Towers! Those are the bits that are completely unrealistic. I'd entertain discussion about a small new B&M prototype model at Towers in a few years time but a cross valley hyper? No chance on god's green earth.

And where did all this discussion come from? A planning application? A leaked document? A Merlin employee accidentally spilling the beans? No, some American geezer on the Like and Subscribe obsessed world of YouTube who's "reliable source" mate told him. I'm sure he's a jolly nice guy who's being very genuine but hardly a smoking gun is it? Especially considering the madness of what is being proposed.

 

[Benjsh]

Multipack deals often tend to reduce the price by a fair bit; the more rides purchased, the bigger the saving! Take Six Flags, for instance; many would probably have said that an Oceaneering dark ride system would have been way too expensive for Six Flags to afford, and if bought individually, they would probably be right. However, because they bought many Justice League dark rides, the price per ride became far more palatable.

Merlin has also done this with B&M before; it’s worth remembering that Raptor, Krake, Swarm, Flug der Damonen and Oblivion the Black Hole were all installed between 2011 and 2015, so I don’t think it would necessarily be inconceivable for quite a few B&M rides to be built within a short timeframe once again. The first 3 were all built in 2011 and 2012, so the timeframe was quite similar to that suggested in the video (The Nemesis retrack never had a particular year allotted to it, so that could be a bit further down the line). I don’t know about you, but the fact that Chessington and numerous Chinese Legolands are confirmed to be receiving B&M rides certainly points to a similar deal having been signed again, if you ask me.

Merlin may well have loosened the purse strings on CAPEX now they’re private again. Many said that Chessington’s new coaster definitely wouldn’t be a B&M because Merlin were “too cheap” to fork out for a B&M, but look how that turned out!

I understand people’s skepticism, but my point is; anything could happen.

You mean like the London Resort was / is going to happen? Hahaha.

It also looks like Chessington are getting one of the smallest B&M's, both in terms of length and height, ever built. It's hardly going to be a ground breaking or record breaking ride is it? Not entirely convinced it's the right move for them at all tbh.

Merlin aren't going to build a hyper coaster at Towers in the valley. It's pipe dream stuff.

 

[MellowPasta]

Can somebody good with Planet Coaster replicate the valley geographically and attempt to design a B&M hyper?

I’d be interested in seeing how it’d work hypothetically speaking.

Just for fun even. Unfortunately my skills stop at RCT2

 

[rob666]

A broken clock is right twice a day

More correctly...a broken clock is wrong 99.99999% of the time.
Edit...And Matt, love your detailed study on a cross valley coaster, and I would love to see one, but the parks location means they would never get planning permission, the planning/environmental lobby would never let it happen in a million years.
Swampy would be down a hole within minutes of the project being announced.
Forget the cross valley coaster!

 

[Matt N]

I do understand where you're coming from. But most of those examples are diddy little things, Swarm and Krake in particular. If the new Chessington winger is a B&M as part of a wider deal, it's tiny, ill thought out and depressingly woeful in terms of capacity. It's not inconceivable for Thorpe and Towers to get B&M's over the next few years by any means.

But we're talking about 2 hypers here - in the UK - one of which being cross valley at Towers! Those are the bits that are completely unrealistic. I'd entertain discussion about a small new B&M prototype model at Towers in a few years time but a cross valley hyper? No chance on god's green earth.

And where did all this discussion come from? A planning application? A leaked document? A Merlin employee accidentally spilling the beans? No, some American geezer on the Like and Subscribe obsessed world of YouTube who's "reliable source" mate told him. I'm sure he's a jolly nice guy who's being very genuine but hardly a smoking gun is it? Especially considering the madness of what is being proposed.

I’d argue all of the rides are fairly sizeable, more so than Chessington’s. All of them are over 100ft tall, and some are even pushing 150ft in that list. I know Chessington’s B&M is a small ride, but I think multi-ride deals can sometimes have a surprising amount of scope in terms of the scales of ride that are built. Also, Merlin is building a lot of B&M at the moment; as well as Chessington’s project, they’ve announced B&Ms for many new Chinese Legolands. With each park receiving 2 B&Ms in some cases, that would surely constitute a pretty large project from B&M’s standpoint, no? (Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t B&M consider a new park to be one project?)

In terms of the source of this rumour; plenty of people reporting via this method have been right before, even when the enthusiast community said they were definitely wrong. For instance, I remember it was a YouTuber who first reported that Valhalla was going to be closed for the 2020 season. Even though everyone vilified them and said they were wrong, the closure ended up happening. There was also a Drayton predictions video that was vilified by the community, but quite a few elements of it ended up being true.

Of course, I’d personally take any rumour with a pinch of salt, and I’ll admit that I personally would have thought that there were more likely options than a cross-valley coaster, but it’s an interesting rumour to consider, don’t you think?

You mean like the London Resort was / is going to happen? Hahaha.

It also looks like Chessington are getting one of the smallest B&M's, both in terms of length and height, ever built. It's hardly going to be a ground breaking or record breaking ride is it? Not entirely convinced it's the right move for them at all tbh.

Merlin aren't going to build a hyper coaster at Towers in the valley. It's pipe dream stuff.

You never know… I’ll admit the SSSI designation is a major stumbling block that has perhaps decreased the chances of materialisation in my eyes, but I reckon there’s still a chance it could pull through and work around the designation!

What I’m trying to say is that Chessington’s ride, regardless of size, is still a B&M, which many thought inconceivable even when the plans were first released. While Chessington’s ride is not a huge B&M, most thought that B&M full stop was “too expensive” for Merlin at the time, citing Vekoma, Gerstlauer or even the likes of SBF as more likely options.

My point is more; we don’t really know what could happen. As much as I know you’re probably all sick of me saying it, I think Merlin’s CAPEX strategy could well have changed when the company went back into private ownership. I think Chessington getting a B&M after 19 years of not much certainly makes it seem like a change has happened, personally. I know the deal mentioned sounds quite radical, but Merlin could well want something radical as a way to inject money back into the parks post-COVID.

And Matt, love your detailed study on a cross valley coaster, and I would love to see one, but the parks location means they would never get planning permission, the planning/environmental lobby would never let it happen in a million years.
Swampy would be down a hole within minutes of the project being announced.
Forget the cross valley coaster!

I’ll admit I’m unsure on how likely it would be, and I’m unsure whether it would get planning consent without at very least some kind of concession from the park (getting rid of Spinball, perhaps?), but it does make me ask; if it would be so difficult to get planning permission there, why has the park masterminded projects there numerous times? (There was the 2003 proposal, but based on what we knew, it sounds as though the original SW8 proposal pre-Wicker Man may also have gone into the valley at least a bit. Not to mention that the 2010-2019 LTDP mentioned a “cross valley ride”)

I should probably stop talking, though… you guys are older, wiser and know far more about this stuff than me.

 

[Quetzal]

Aren't the cross valley woodie and the B&M surf two separate projects that John Wardley has always had in the back of his mind for Alton Towers. Surely there's been a site for the surf earmarked for a while that is separate to the cross-valley? I struggle to see why they would then switch to a B&M in the valley (which would be difficult to pass through the planning process) if there are other suitable sites available.

Feels like a lot of speculation based around some concrete facts in that video. B&M? Maybe. Cross-Valley? Surely not

 

[Skyscraper]

Merlin are going to pay for 3 B&M's all within the next 4 years and also sign up to a complete Nemesis retrack too? Who are they kidding? Hahahahaha

I'm one of the biggest B&M fanboys there are so this would make me very happy indeed but I'm not buying it one bit. It's absolute nonsense. No way they can afford two hypers, an Invert retrack and also a smaller prototype launch coaster too all within 4 years.

I completely agree and was thinking the same. 3 new coasters plus a complete Nemesis re-track would surely cost tens of millions of pounds as we all know that B&Ms are not cheap.

 

[rob666]

I’d argue all of the rides are fairly sizeable, more so than Chessington’s. All of them are over 100ft tall, and some are even pushing 150ft in that list. I know Chessington’s B&M is a small ride, but I think multi-ride deals can sometimes have a surprising amount of scope in terms of the scales of ride that are built. Also, Merlin is building a lot of B&M at the moment; as well as Chessington’s project, they’ve announced B&Ms for many new Chinese Legolands. With each park receiving 2 B&Ms in some cases, that would surely constitute a pretty large project from B&M’s standpoint, no? (Correct me if I’m wrong, but wouldn’t B&M consider a new park to be one project?)

In terms of the source of this rumour; plenty of people reporting via this method have been right before, even when the enthusiast community said they were definitely wrong. For instance, I remember it was a YouTuber who first reported that Valhalla was going to be closed for the 2020 season. Even though everyone vilified them and said they were wrong, the closure ended up happening. There was also a Drayton predictions video that was vilified by the community, but quite a few elements of it ended up being true.

Of course, I’d personally take any rumour with a pinch of salt, and I’ll admit that I personally would have thought that there were more likely options than a cross-valley coaster, but it’s an interesting rumour to consider, don’t you think?

You never know… I’ll admit the SSSI designation is a major stumbling block that has perhaps decreased the chances of materialisation in my eyes, but I reckon there’s still a chance it could pull through and work around the designation!

What I’m trying to say is that Chessington’s ride, regardless of size, is still a B&M, which many thought inconceivable even when the plans were first released. While Chessington’s ride is not a huge B&M, most thought that B&M full stop was “too expensive” for Merlin at the time, citing Vekoma, Gerstlauer or even the likes of SBF as more likely options.

My point is more; we don’t really know what could happen. As much as I know you’re probably all sick of me saying it, I think Merlin’s CAPEX strategy could well have changed when the company went back into private ownership. I think Chessington getting a B&M after 19 years of not much certainly makes it seem like a change has happened, personally. I know the deal mentioned sounds quite radical, but Merlin could well want something radical as a way to inject money back into the parks post-COVID.

I’ll admit I’m unsure on how likely it would be, and I’m unsure whether it would get planning consent without at very least some kind of concession from the park (getting rid of Spinball, perhaps?), but it does make me ask; if it would be so difficult to get planning permission there, why has the park masterminded projects there numerous times? (There was the 2003 proposal, but based on what we knew, it sounds as though the original SW8 proposal pre-Wicker Man may also have gone into the valley at least a bit. Not to mention that the 2010-2019 LTDP mentioned a “cross valley ride”)

I should probably stop talking, though… you guys are older, wiser and know far more about this stuff than me.

Matt...you look at all of this through the eyes of a coaster freak...the vast majority of the population have no interest whatsoever, apart from maybe one day a year.
From a local planning perspective, there is zero chance of a cross valley coaster of any kind.
They tried it on to test the waters.
They gave up.

 

[Matt N]

Matt...you look at all of this through the eyes of a coaster freak...the vast majority of the population have no interest whatsoever, apart from maybe one day a year.
From a local planning perspective, there is zero chance of a cross valley coaster of any kind.
They tried it on to test the waters.
They gave up.

Fair point; I guess I sometimes forget that even if it technically doesn’t infringe upon local planning restrictions, the locals probably wouldn’t be best pleased about a cross valley coaster…

I’ll admit I’d struggle to think of any other potential sites for SW9, though…

 

[Quetzal]

Just think about the vast amounts of trees they'd have to fell so that all the required plant to construct a B&M in the valley could access it. Is there even a feasible route to get a crane in? I'm sure that environmental groups, as well as locals, would have some serious concerns.

The locations of The Smiler and Wickerman were both surprises. With some careful rejigging there are lots of locations for potential rollercoaster sites within the park boundaries. Outside of the boundaries, there's Coaster Corner/ behind Katanga/ behind Duel/ the fabled Air Car Park that could also be utilised if the funds were in place. Not that I'd ever expect them to expand far beyond the existing boundaries.

 

[Matt.GC]

Can somebody good with Planet Coaster replicate the valley geographically and attempt to design a B&M hyper?

I’d be interested in seeing how it’d work hypothetically speaking.

Just for fun even. Unfortunately my skills stop at RCT2

I had a go at exactly this last night actually! Problem is, it's finger in the air stuff. No one can replicate that valley to scale.

You don't really gain anything from the valley. Bearing in mind you could drop into the valley but pretty much the only thing you can then do is go back up the other side. The coaster would still need to stay below the tree hight even in the bottom of the valley itself and by the time it's dropped down there's not much room down there to do much with it.

 

[Matt N]

You don't really gain anything from the valley. Bearing in mind you could drop into the valley but pretty much the only thing you can then do is go back up the other side. The coaster would still need to stay below the tree hight even in the bottom of the valley itself and by the time it's dropped down there's not much room down there to do much with it.

Despite the argument I made above in favour of a cross valley coaster, I’ll admit I actually agree with this, in hindsight. I did some research into the previous proposal, and I’ll admit that I’m perhaps less of an advocate for a cross-valley coaster after having done that. I still think one is possible, and could happen, but I’m less sure that it’s what I’d like to see.

This thread reminded me to have another look at the cross-valley plans from 2003, and as controversial as it might sound, I actually think that they didn’t look like all they’re cracked up to be when I had a look at them. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure it would have been a great ride, but after having looked at the plans, I’ll admit I’m not salivating over them like many others seem to.

If you look at the layout given in the planning application, it’s basically just two huge drops and not an awful lot else. Yes, it would have been very big, and I’m sure the drops would have been excellent, but I dare say that it would have lacked substance beyond the two giant drops.

For that reason, if a cross-valley coaster like the one described was ever considered, I think Towers would have to use land within either Dark Forest or Forbidden Valley if they wanted to make it a more interesting ride. Out of the options given in the video; if SW9 does end up being a steel resurrection of the cross-valley coaster, then I’d personally expect a B&M Surf Coaster over a B&M Hyper Coaster, simply because I think you could do more with a multi-launch coaster without needing to utilise the valley, thus meaning that the ride could have a more interesting layout in, say, Dark Forest, as opposed to needing to stay in the valley the whole time.

Controversial opinion time; I’m actually kind of glad we got Wicker Man instead of a cross-valley woodie, as I think the layout has more substance to it than the cross-valley would have done, and I honestly think it’s more interesting than the cross-valley woodie looked, personally.

 

[BarryZola]

Forget the cross valley coaster!

Neverrrrrr!!!

 

[JAperson]

Even if it's not cross valley I still expect Altons next coater to be a B&M. I have no idea what model but I'm sticking to my opinion that Merlin have got a big deal with B&M and that explains the odd choose for the coaster at chessington. To me it makes perfect sense for both Merlin and B&M.

 

[rob666]

There is a lot of room geographically within the park boundary behind Thirteen, on the "high" level, and low ground within the park valley on that side beneath the gardens that could easily be used, with a clear old road and path route without trees.
I walked it all a couple of months ago, behind a five barred wooden gate at the top of the gardens...unlocked, and with no keep out signs, of course!
More than enough space for the extra fun bits of a cross valley woodie on both sides of the garden valley.
Not a chance of it ever getting planning though nowadays I imagine.
Sorry Barryzola.

 

[BarryZola]

On balance, it probably won't happen. However, I do think there's a chance that they could get it through planning in some form with some considerable effort. Probably due to cost and faff though, the project will stay on the drawing board where it was left several years ago.

 

[Matt N]

There is a lot of room geographically within the park boundary behind Thirteen, on the "high" level, and low ground within the park valley on that side beneath the gardens that could easily be used, with a clear old road and path route without trees.
I walked it all a couple of months ago, behind a five barred wooden gate at the top of the gardens...unlocked, and with no keep out signs, of course!
More than enough space for the extra fun bits of a cross valley woodie on both sides of the garden valley.
Not a chance of it ever getting planning though nowadays I imagine.
Sorry Barryzola.

Are you referring to the area where the Schwarzkopf coaster proposed by John Broome in the early 1990s would have gone? I only ask because I know that that was due to go in the woods somewhere by Corkscrew, but not where Rita presently is.

I certainly think a cross-valley is doable with the right vision and creativity, though! Even if it would be tough to get through planning…

I wonder if we’d even be suggesting it if Towers hadn’t done the original proposal… I think that original 2003 plan opened Pandora’s Box in terms of a cross valley coaster!

 

[rob666]

Yup, that very bit.
Behind where Roller Disco was, there are three or four old paths and roads, as well as the grass"ride" (broad grass path for horses) that used to have picnic tables down the side, back in the days of the Corkscrew.
All that section of the upper gardens has been semi closed off for years, behind the unlocked wooden gate.
Following the contoured old path round the valley top, you eventually come out round the back of Thirteen and the Skyway station.
There is another clear old path from there that drops right down the valley, towards Alton village, but it is steep and full of bramble...but no historic trees, only recent weed trees in the pathway...so we can squeeze Mr Zola's cross valley woodie right round the back of the big Burger Kitchen and the Dungeons to Cloud Cuckoo Land, without chopping down a single old tree.