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The Alton Towers Dungeon

Rob said:
To be fair, that's just not true. Many theme parks in Europe and the US invite fan sites to media events and UK theme parks have finally caught up in the last few years.
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Media nights are fine, but to an unfinished ride and with photography allowed? If European parks allow thousands of 'spoiler', high-res flash photos to go online on opening day then that's sad.

I think giving enthusiasts a no-photography backstage tour of something is a nice gesture and they might enjoy the insight into the real industry, so long as it's after the ride has opened and theyve all done the attraction under 'show' conditions. And that it's open to anyone who wants to come, not just vloggers who will give them the right PR.

Otherwise it's just exploiting something for the sake of press, without giving other fans a chance to enjoy something.

Most enthusiasts are sensible but it's easy to lose perspective and turn it into a game of 'having the first photos of the new XYZ' or 'having the most likes on Facebook'. It stops being about fun and surprise, and starts to become about being an enthusiast for the sake of it.

It's largely Merlin's fault really, they will hardly say no to the PR opportunity over any integrity. But it's sad that, when I was a teenager, your first experience of a new attraction would be stepping into the new attraction, with it all around you, the sight, sound and smells.

Now most people's first experience of a new attraction is this (if you're lucky):
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This isn't all about one enthusiast or another (and my previous post wasn't actually about Shawn), but I think it's something across the board really. It has just become an expectation sadly.
 
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Very true Kraken27, but I don't think he would care, and his main viewer base probably wouldn't either! I don't think it matters though, people have different hobbies for different reasons I guess.

I really do agree with your thinking Takeyourmedicine, so much so it's hard to actually express it in words! But I also don't really care about flash or lighting distortions in this particular instance. Why? Because I just don't care about the attraction :tearsofjoy: and I don't think a whole lot of other people do either, possibly including those who were taking pictures!

Also, as has been discussed before, if people want to see stuff, whilst I personally will not look at most images available, I wouldn't go out of my way to stop other people from seeing it. You're never going to stop it sadly. Even 'secret project' ride names get leaked nowadays, and we live in an information age where council plans/documents and the like are all there for the world to see on some pdf page. It's rather like these film pages on social media that just about leak everything there is to know about an upcoming release, which sometimes leads to the film producers going as far as to lengthening the trailers because there's just no point in hiding it anymore, again spoiling the surprise and effect of watching the film in cinema. We can't do anything about it, unless we decide to live as hermits.

I personally love experiencing theme parks first hand in the 'here and now', and I do want to visit places like Europa Park, and the Studios Parks in America, and I'm glad to say I haven't actually seen many pictures of what these parks are like. I don't even know what many of the attractions in the parks are called because I deliberately avoid all info about it. I would urge others who haven't visited to do the same, although it's up to them. I just love the experiential surprise. Gathering factoidy 'information' or watching Youtube vlogs might seem alluring and tempting, but you might end up regretting it when you've already seen it on a screen a hundred miles away!
 
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As I said in the Stargazing Pods thread, what I've seen of this so far looks very promising; I look forward to hearing some opening day reviews! I genuinely think this attraction could surprise people when it opens!
 
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Sauron97 said:
Even 'secret project' ride names get leaked nowadays, and we live in an information age where council plans/documents and the like are all there for the world to see on some pdf page.
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To be fair that's inevitable because of the planning process, it has to be made public. But that only really affects coasters I guess, which dont rely on much surprise or show anyway.

Sauron97 said:
if people want to see stuff, whilst I personally will not look at most images available, I wouldn't go out of my way to stop other people from seeing it.
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Still I've gone out of my way to not see new things over these last few years but have been bombarded by it online anyway. Except for this one, which I was so disinterested in that I skimmed through that video. But really, I shouldnt have done, I should have still let the actual finished attraction be my first impression of it.

I dont know about others, but when I first cut out the hype, spoilers and nonsense about new attractions, I started to enjoy theme parks much more again. Just a much more laid back experience and fun. Even then, there weren't flash photos exposing every minutiae —and the fun used to be noticing more of these details each time you go around! Not stuck on some Facebook page.

As a kid, if it's there online then you cant resist it, you're going to look. Even if it means there are zero surprises. I wish park PR depts and enthusiasts would have more appreciation for this and responsibility really.
 
To be fair, I think the digital / internet / social media age has changed everything from an enthusiasts / theme parks viewpoint.

There was a time (lets say 20yrs ago) when you could only find out what parks were planning by either having contacts in the right places, or visiting the local council planning offices. The two main coaster clubs in the UK (ECC & RCCGB) & further afield probably picked up a bit of membership from this too, as "exclusives" were only in their respective club magazines & the internet was in an early age (dial-up, 14.4kb / 28.8kb/sec - remember that?! - not 200MB/sec!)

How things have changed in 20yrs. The parks can keep nothing secret now - just about everything is online, be it on a fan-site or social media, or the local councils planning portal. Just about every guest to a park has a camera-enabled smartphone with them. B&M have even stopped putting the clients name on track section barcodes as people were taking photos of them on lorries [mainly in the USA] and reporting on where the next B&M was going before the park had announced it!
 
I found the behind the scenes to be enticing, enough to create some buzz about the Dungeons but also keeping some back to try in person. It will be particularly interesting to see what the Black River ride is like and the Haunting of Molly Leigh. These were not shown on the tour, however it is concerning to see it is still under construction, hopefully this will be sorted by the official launch on 23rd March.

evilcod said:
If we compare this year to the other similar years after the last few secret weapon coasters:
1999 (after Oblivion) - Frog Hopper and Ugland placemaking (no new attractions in Ugland)
2003 (after Air) - Berry Bish Bash and Duel retheme
2011 (after Th13teen) - Spidercrabs in SEALIFE (yes really)
2014 (after Smiler) - CBeebies land (probably the best of these low seasons but still done to a low budget remembering that Octonaughts, Furchester and GOJetters came later)
2019 (after Wickerman) - The Dungeons & Peter Rabbit ride
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This is a good point and whilst its not ideal to have to pay additional fees for the Dungeons, 2019 is shaping up to be a good year considering the low investment cycle. Having a midway attraction means there is actually something new to try out. It will avoid a repeat of years like 2011 when there was nothing much to do.
 
Exactly my point with regards to tech and how it has changed how we visit and see theme parks. I doubt we've even realize how the way we see these places is so shaped by the information we are fed through forums, videos, and social media. I made the reference to the film industry because it really does extend far beyond theme parks. Everyone wants everything. And everyone wants it now, no sense of patience. Netflix and digital films instead of going to the old blockbuster. Online shopping over high street. Some of it is for financial reasons I accept that, but much of it is because of a culture of laziness IMO.

Disagree that coasters don't rely on surprise, though perhaps that's just me. Sure, a lot of them are outdoors, and the ability to make them 'theatrical' or use lighting effects is (obviously) lower, but especially in a park like Alton Towers where rides are not plumped 200 foot in the air over a giant concrete block/car park, you go from seeing nothing in countryside in the middle of nowhere to seeing everything very quickly and I think the visual effect/element of surprise is a kind of its own. I wished I hadn't looked up the Wickerman press release images, as I think seeing the statue without having any visual/online information about it would of been tremendous.
I also never looked up or saw Alton Towers on my first ever visit, I hadn't even searched the place up on the internet. The first I saw of the park was on a monorail, and in more depth when I eventually got around to each area; and that to me was unforgettable. That I doubt would of been the case had I watched vlogs or scrolled through hundreds of pictures like so many are sadly doing nowadays. I even think if you don't look it up after you've been, there's still a better experiential vibe to the place you are visiting. It's all about accessing it only when you are there and not taking advantage of it or cheapening your day out.

I agree with your philosophy on cutting out spoilers, though sometimes I just give in and accept the fact that sometimes we all make errors in judgement. I will continue to avoid looking at any pictures or information about parks I haven't been to. Whatever anyone else decides to do, that's up to them.

As for the Dungeon, I wouldn't worry about it. We all knew the moment it was announced that it would end up like this anyway. There's nothing to spoil, the whole place is 'spoilt' already if you get the gist, in both meanings of the word :)
 
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Sauron97 said:
Disagree that coasters don't rely on surprise ... you go from seeing nothing in countryside in the middle of nowhere to seeing everything very quickly and I think the visual effect/element of surprise is a kind of its own.
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I just meant in relation to your earlier point about planning permission, the only thing planning will spoil is the layout which doesnt give away the ride experience. You can see it's going to do drops and turns from the path, a coaster doesnt rely on being seen under lighting, a certain angle, or sensory effects to work like a dark ride.

A theatrical element on a coaster would probably be indoors so wouldnt be given away by planning, but it probably would be spoilt by the slew of geek media anyway.

I remember someone filming the Wicker Man preshow the day it opened. Like whenever something new opens, it's just a race to be the first to upload it in a shaky GoPro video or flash photos. Now they're not even waiting until it's open of course!

Enthusiasts are spending thousands on high grade equipment to photograph and film attractions 'better' than other enthusiasts. It's just ridiculous and completely irrelevant to what theme parks are really all about. I never even see them smile or enjoy it while theyre staring through their phones and camera screens.
 
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Ah, I was just referring to any form of digital info, the planning thing was just one aspect of it. I was meaning more along the lines of not knowing anything about the ride or its planning/construction before it opens vs knowing its name, its theme, its layout from the council plans, pictures of its construction, test run videos ect. Compare it to the secrecy around Oblivion back when it was under its secret weapon codename! And yeah I remember lots of vloggers all doing their PR stunts for the park, it was sad, and as you say, not what theme parks should be about. Nonetheless, I don't feel the slightest bit bothered that I've seen all the Towers street pictures of the Dungeons. It's just confirmed to me why I will never ever set foot in that place for as long as the attraction exists there!
 
The topic of social media and the enthusiast community is a very interesting one. Even though I often look at things online before experiencing an attraction, it doesn't tend to ruin the surprise for me because I find that when you're there in person, things can still take you by surprise, and you still notice things that you didn't notice on video. As good as camera quality is in this day and age, there are many elements of an experience that no camera could possibly do justice. When I rode Wicker Man for the first time, for example; I had watched plenty of videos on it and I had read plenty of reviews, but it still surprised me with how much I enjoyed it. With a ride like that, there are many things that a camera doesn't show, and nothing beats being there and seeing it in the flesh for me.

Admittedly, dark rides are slightly different, but I'd say that the same principle applies to some extent. I am admittedly trying to avoid spoilers on Flight of Passage at Animal Kingdom, which I am riding soon, because that ride has been hyped beyond belief and I don't want to form expectations off of a POV, but I'd imagine that that is the sort of experience that no video can do justice.
 
Matt N said:
Admittedly, dark rides are slightly different, but I'd say that the same principle applies to some extent.
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If you've already seen exactly what's going to happen while sat in your room, and seen hundreds of flash photos revealing parts of sets/ mechanisms you wouldnt see, learnt all the pointless trivia and seen backstage before you've even set foot in the ride.. then the actual act of riding just becomes token, a more jaded experience without the surprise or reveal. Whereas a coaster, the main event is the sensation which you can't experience from a video.

You're right, video currently doesnt 100% capture a dark ride or show thankfully, though some people treat them like they do. At least we're not Disney where you get fans parading through filming 'Ultra Low Light 4K 360˚ Binaural Audio Immersive POV!!!' —yet!

There's reading the dull Wikipedia sypnosis of a movie before you actually watch the movie, then there's absorbing all this theme park media without even visiting the park. You're just making it less fun for yourself.

Anyway people could say all sorts about theme parks turning into 'free internet content', but my original post was more about a kind of respect that's gone missing among fans. Theatres don't invite geeks to film entire shows before they've opened to the public, and you wouldn't take thousands of flash photos of a show, so why is it expected in dark rides and walkarounds? It's the exact same thing.

They should at least show appreciation for the lighting and scenery by not using flash photography, that at least wouldnt flatten a scene and make it look nothing like it's intended. 'No flash photography' used to be widely accepted by fans and riders.
 
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Spot on @TakeYourMedicine

I visited Orlando a few years back in the time when I'd not been as active and interested in theme parks and coasters, so I wasn't very clued up on their recent additions and didn't do much research.

Forbidden Journey was my favourite ride of the whole trip, because I knew absolutely nothing about it beforehand. The ride system, queueline theming etc was a complete surprise.
 
Kraken27 said:
There was a time (lets say 20yrs ago) when you could only find out what parks were planning by either having contacts in the right places, or visiting the local council planning offices. The two main coaster clubs in the UK (ECC & RCCGB) & further afield probably picked up a bit of membership from this too, as "exclusives" were only in their respective club magazines & the internet was in an early age (dial-up, 14.4kb / 28.8kb/sec - remember that?! - not 200MB/sec!)
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I have fond memories of Matt's SW4 Site and Rideas.
 
Dave said:
This topic has turned into forum equivalent of the old man in the bar spouting “back in my day” and “kids these days don’t know what hardship is”....
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Not really!
I'm a young person, the people taking all these photos are older than me.
The time I'm talking about was only 5-10 years ago when social media was less rampant.

Although of course, it's very easy to not listen to what's being said and just conflate everything with a stereotype, so you can dismiss it and get some likes. Hey, it's like social media!

Surprise, enjoyment, reveal, and 'being there' in the moment is better for everyone, it's what theme parks are all about.

I'm not trying to cling to a past or take anybody's enjoyment away. Well apart from vlogs and social media, but are we in this for social media or for theme parks?

We would all have a lot more fun.
 
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TakeYourMedicine said:
Although of course, it's very easy to not listen to what's being said and just conflate everything with a stereotype, so you can dismiss it and get some likes. Hey, it's like social media!
.
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I think you may put more stock in the power of forum “likes” than I do.

These Youtube vids are a thing. So long as the people posting these things are clear that there are spoilers and ideally clear if the parks have paid them or given them freebies then the rest is personal choice. It’s not my cup of tea (or glass of wine) but stressing about it isn’t going to do my old heart any favours..... particularly as when I was a lad our dad made us eat a handful of gravel every day and we worked down pit for 18 hours for tuppance a fortnight.

Anyway back on topic....

The dungeons look naff don’t they!
 
Dave said:
I think you may put more stock in the power of forum “likes” than I do.
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Ok, you were posting for the sake of a 'good zinger' then.

This is not a generational thing, there is no 'we had it tougher back in my day' bitterness. If anything, I'm saying everybody benefits when theme parks aren't just being played for a social media game. For that reason I care a lot about this subject.

Everybody had more fun when you had to go to the actual attraction to discover a new attraction, the actual thing that had all the work put into it.

Again if you're expected not to take 100s of close-up flash photos in a theatre and post them online, why is it different for attractions?

Feel free to disagree with my posts obviously, but at least take the effort to understand what's being said or at least contribute to the discussion, before you project an irrelevant stereotype?
 
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