The Armoury, Picture Gallery, Octagon and Talbot Gallery

[DaveW]

The Armoury in the early 50s, looking towards the Grand Entrance. This is now the early part of Hex's queue.

I know this a bit of a delayed reaction but is that not actual the Talbot Gallery. As that originally had a glazed roof with the hound head buttresses. As far as I recall the armoury and picture gallery never had these


And as for the removal of a shipping container lets not get to hasty here!! It's likely that container is now then Th13teen shop!!

 

[BarryZola]

Yeah, pretty sure that is the Talbot gallery. I did notice it a few weeks back when it originally got posted. I was close to pointing it out too but couldn't be bothered in the end

 

[Squiggs]

I've wrestled with that image for as long as I have had it and had much the same debate myself.

The ceiling screams that that is a picture of the Talbot Gallery. The Talbot Hound's supporting the ceiling and the roof lights are all in keeping with how we expect the Talbot Gallery to look.

However nothing else in the picture makes sense if this is the Talbot Gallery, as we would have to be looking towards the Octagon (the other end of the gallery not having a doorway). However the door between the Talbot Gallery and the Octagon is flanked by two arches, and there is no secondary arch within the Gallery (like the one supporting the faux portcullis here), and the light beyond the doorway pictured suggest looking outside, rather then into another room.

Also the windows seen are slim and topped with arches, but the windows added to the Talbot Gallery are short and rectangular.

Finally the first Talbot fireplace is only just inside the room as seen in here:

(I think this is one of yours Dave from a previous topic on some other forum)

The fireplace is absent, and moreover the raised plinth section and pipes wouldn't allow for a fireplace in this wall.

My conclusion was that the picture can't possibly be the Talbot Gallery and therefore rather what has been assumed about the Armoury before the demolition of the house interiors is somehow incorrect.

Sorry, that's all a bit long winded, but the above was my exact thought process whilst originally studying the picture.

---

However.... looking at it again.... we're all wrong... it's the Picture Gallery!!

Look at this picture, which is clearly of the Armoury looking towards the Octagon in the distance:

You can see the same iron gate and faux-portcullis and beyond the room leading up to the Octagon is extremely bright (in fact if you look closely you can even see the skylights in the roof).

I think the assumption that we've all made (as well as most literature on the subject if I recall correctly) regarding the Picture Gallery having a solid roof is incorrect. and instead the roof in this room mirrored that of the Talbot Gallery opposite.

I have to say I'm rather excited by that... another aspect of the lost Towers illuminated!*


*Excuse the awful pun..... please excuse it!

 

[Dave]

It certainly seems the picture gallery had the glass skylights in the roof, it is the only solution to this conundrum. It does seem however that the hound heads in the picture gallery where part of the last roof structure whereas in the Talbot Gallery they seem more independent as the roof has been lost there but the hounds remain.

 

[BarryZola]

I think you've cracked it there Squiggs

It all seems to add up. I can't remember what exactly had been said about the roof in the picture gallery without looking at the obvious book and other sources again etc, but you may be right in the assumption that the roof has recently been strongly assumed as consisting only of a solid stone structure as opposed to have been consisting of some glass very similar to the Talbot Gallery. If it is correct that it has been assumed that the picture gallery never had a partially glass roof, it would be worth pointing that out to the relevant people, as it appears from these photo's that it clearly did. Good work

Edit: I've just consulted the Gothic Wonderland book where Fisher (p60) does actually suggest/confirm that "once through the Armoury visitors would experience a change of atmosphere as they passed into the Picture Gallery where a significant part of the sixteenth earl's celebrated art collection was displayed. The gallery was top-lit by cast iron skylights with ground-glass panels, and the roof was supported on wooden corbels in the shape of Talbot dogs holding shields between their fore-paws". (This is on p59 of the Alton Tower Past and Present book).

 

[Squiggs]

Having now got home I've had chance to dust off my copy of Gothic Wonderland, Michael Fisher does refer to the Picture Gallery being Skylit. Apparently the Talbot Hounds seen in the Picture Gallery were wooden, hence their removal. If you compare pictures of the two Galleries you can clearly see the difference in the hounds if you know what you're looking for.

I think my misconception (and I assume others) comes from the fact that such a song and dance is made of the Talbot Gallery's Skylights, as they were (almost) the only illumination for the room, whilst the Picture Gallery had windows as well as the Skylights, so how the room was lit is barely mentioned.

 

[BarryZola]

Just edited my last post and then realized that you've just suggested the same regarding the book. The 'relatively' small size of the picture gallery put me off the scent a bit too if I'm honest.

 

[Squiggs]

I think the perspective of the picture doesn't help either, as it doesn't seem like it'd be possible for the entire Armoury to lie beyond that arch.

I've seen several pictures of these galleries that have that same effect, especially ones taken from the Octagon. One springs to mind especially of the Talbot Gallery from the Octagon(Another of Dave's scans from Gothic Wonderland) that make it look like a very small room indeed. I assume this forced perspective of the grand scaled galleries was part of the intended effect, that the observer would assume the rooms were small until they entered and the full splendour was unveiled

 

[DaveW]

I must admit after I posted the original post ilooked again and noticed the windows in the wall and though that it seemed a bit strange, can't say I've seen many images of that part of the towers during that timeframe

One thing that still puzzles me though, at some point between the 1920s and the 50s the armoury was apparently extensively reworked with a new roof structure including the talbot hounds and significantly different metal work? What's even more bizar is the current roof seems to match that found in the earlier 1920s images as opposed to the structure seen in the 50s image

.

Also present here in the 20s are the stone plinths on which the covered statutes stand today, which are conspicuously absent from the 50s shot, and on inspection the roof structure seen in then50s image intact matches the original roof structure of the talbot gallery seen in other images.

Anyone got any thoughts?

 

[Aly]

Just had a quick read of the book 'Alton Towers Past & Present' and it mentions the following about the armoury:

"The walls were lined with figures clad in suits of armour standing on stone pedestals, and the lancet windows in the north wall were eventually filled with stained glass by William Warrington depicting members of the Verdun, Marshall and Comyn families, and King William I. Above was a fine panelled ceiling with carved and gilded bossses, only the framework of which is still extant. This no doubt formed a principal part of the carpenters' work carried out by Thomas Harris and Jonas Hartley during the transformation of old coach-house into the new armoury. This concealed the existing coach house roof, now exposed again following the removal of the ceiling panels in the 1950's.

Once through the Armoury visitors would experience a change of atmosphere as they passed into the Picture Gallery where a significant part of the sixteenth earl's celebrated art collection was displayed. The gallery was top-lit by cast-iron skylights with ground-glass panels, and the roof was supported on wooden corbels in the shape of Talbot dogs holding shields between their fore-paws. From the Picture Gallery the route onto the house led through the Octagon Sculpture Gallery, and then to the house conservatory which in addition to the exotic plants had cut-glass chandeliers, marble statues, and song-birds in gilded cases: altogether four changes of scene along the 150-yard route from the Entrance Tower to the drawing room."

"The Talbot Gallery was buttressed down each side and unlike the Picture Gallery it had now windows except those in the tower (at the end), the present square openings in the walls dating only from the 1940's. As was appropriate for a Gallery built to display works of art, illumination was provided entirely from above, through Skylights with delicate cast-iron tracery and panels of ground glass. These were set into the timber framed roof supported by corbels in the form of Talbot hounds, although unlike the ones on the Picture Gallery these were made of cast-iron. Between the corbels ran brass picture-rails supported on gilt brackets."