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The Brexit Thread

Voted remain, but (reluctant) acceptance now that we do leave but only with some sort of deal.

No deal is simply not viable, especially when we have many pushing that no deal will be a clean break that'll get brexit over and done with. It's not, it never will be and ultimately will ruin any chance of future trade deals on any sort of decent terms. In the same vein, a deal will not get Brexit 'done'. What would follow again is months/years of negotiations, to sell it as such is completely wrong in my view.

And then we move onto the deal itself. It's completely an utterly irresponsible to try and push through the withdrawal agreement bill in a matter of days. Yet again we see the tory party putting their own need to complete this by some arbitrary date for election purposes over what is ultimately right for the country. The same people who moaned about the 5 page Benn bill going through in a matter of days are pushing for a 115 page bill which has the most wide ranging effect on the UK in modern history, which was only published late last night in the space of 8 maybe 10 days tops. It's nothing short of wreckless, not to mention completely hypocritical after the fuss kicked up over the Benn Act.

If this government gave any sort of damn about getting this done properly for the benefit of the UK and not just the party, they could have published the bill earlier, accepted that 31st October is not possible and extended with the EU. This would've given chance for a sensible programme for the bill to be introduced, where MPs and the Lord had a decent amount of time for scrutiny and debate instead of this complete rush job going on right now. It's completely bonkers that I've seeing some MPs say they will vote for this deals without barely even reading the bill. There's not even been enough time for a proper summary to be written by the Commons Library for them to digest! You wouldn't walk into an estate agents, say you wanted to buy a house and sign on the dotted line without seeing what it looks like! As Alsty says, we elect MPs to act in our best interests, and this mad rush surely is not?
 
And if the arse opposition haven’t been hell bent on trying to revoke the referendum and stop Brexit at any cost then maybe the government would have been able to present the WAB sooner for debate :rolleyes:
 
I like to think I can look at all situations objectively but I don't think I'll ever be able to understand exactly what leavers want to achieve from this sorry state of affairs.

I'd go so far as saying it's totally changed my opinion of some friends, family and colleagues because I feel that they aren't the people I thought they were.
 
bluesonichd said:
And if the arse opposition haven’t been hell bent on trying to revoke the referendum and stop Brexit at any cost then maybe the government would have been able to present the WAB sooner for debate :rolleyes:
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I mean I could go on forever about the issues caused by the government too such as the pointlessly long prorogation, needless Queen's speech (read: Election manifesto) when we're going toward an election anyway, multiple meaningful votes which weren't going to get anywhere, the leadership contest etc but we are where we are.

Let's be honest, if the shoe was on the other foot and Labour were presenting a timetable such as that suggested by the government this week, there would be absolute hell on.
 
Craig said:
Let's be honest, if the shoe was on the other foot and Labour were presenting a timetable such as that suggested by the government this week, there would be absolute hell on.
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Something we agree on :D
Politicians, blue / red / yellow / pink / green
You just can’t trust any of them to get anything done
I guess that why they are called the opposition
To oppose everything the other side says. :rolleyes:
 
bluesonichd said:
And if the arse opposition haven’t been hell bent on trying to revoke the referendum and stop Brexit at any cost then maybe the government would have been able to present the WAB sooner for debate :rolleyes:
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Where is the evidence for this? Corbyn is, and has been for many years, in favour of leaving the EU. Perhaps not in the same way as the conservative government imagine it, but brexit all the same.

The opposition have been accused of being weak and out of action by the left. As a force to be wreckoned with against brexit by the right. The truth clearly lies in the middle ground.

If the opposition wanted brexit forgotten they would've pushed for a referendum with remain as an option from the moment a deal was mentioned. They didn't do that.

Simply because they believe the currently negotiated deal would be a disaster for a multitude of reasons, doesn't mean they don't want to leave the EU at all.

I actually think a large part of the problem is that there is no clear opposition. There is no clear leader. There is just several factions with no majority. Here we are, not hampered by the opposition but by the spanner in the works that is brexit and what it specifically means.

I agree with the above, I still can't seem to find valid convincing arguments for leaving.
 
bluesonichd said:
And if the arse opposition haven’t been hell bent on trying to revoke the referendum and stop Brexit at any cost then maybe the government would have been able to present the WAB sooner for debate :rolleyes:
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A lot of the opposition's delay tactics are caused by the government's determination to deliver Brexit at any cost to the country, to aid the rifts in the Tory party.

We've seen in this thread how people seemingly aren't bothered about details, they "just want Brexit done", seemingly almost entirely ambivalent about the customs union, single market, new borders, free movement of people etc. They just want an undefined thing "done". I wish I understood that but Dominic Cummings does and is playing into it with all the current rhetoric.

People also seem to forget just how much time the government itself has wasted over the past couple of years with a needless general election, leadership election, pulling of multiple votes - not to mention an illegal prorogation.... and now we're stuck with three days to debate legislation that will affect the trajectory of our country for the next few decades. Jeez.

Not slagging the bill off as I'm only half way through it, but there's a number of areas of concern at first glance.
 
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At the end of the day, Parliament are doing everything they can to delay/stop Brexit and therefore go against the will of the majority (however small it is deemed to be). This has been the case ever since the referendum result. Is it any wonder given the formation of the current Parliament though? This is something that is further reinforced throughout the majority of media outlets and Brexit related correspondence. I don't think 'Question Time' has ever had more than one leaver on the panel for example. Boris is facing an absolute uphill struggle as evidenced by the fact that Corbyn appeared to have rejected his deal prior to it even being released for scrutiny.

I have no doubt that if another referendum was held, the silent (largely) majority would prevail again. I actually know people who voted remain originally but would vote leave now. I know nobody who voted leave who would now vote remain.

Stuie said:
I like to think I can look at all situations objectively but I don't think I'll ever be able to understand exactly what leavers want to achieve from this sorry state of affairs.

I'd go so far as saying it's totally changed my opinion of some friends, family and colleagues because I feel that they aren't the people I thought they were.
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This is something that I will never understand. I know people on both sides but would never ever let someone's views on Politics get in the way of a friendship/relationship. Life is surely too short for that pal?

And on that note, does anyone know how busy Alton Towers will be on April 24th 2025?
 
SirDossa said:
I know people on both sides but would never ever let someone's views on Politics get in the way of a friendship/relationship. Life is surely too short for that pal?
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This is an opinion I used to have, but I have also drifted from it. Somebody's personal politics can't tell you everything about a person, complex as we all are, but it can reveal a lot about their attitude, tolerance and compassion on a wider scale. It's easy to have this opinion if you are technically in a position where Brexit wouldn't really directly affect you, or if like some in this thread, you just seemingly lost all hope and fallen into full-scale misanthropy. But a lot of people don't have this privilege, and I think their experience and vulnerability is worth bearing in mind, too.

Where my parents live, the vote was mainly for Brexit. The largest employer there, an international manufacturer, made it clear that if Brexit went through, it would be difficult for them to continue and expand as they had planned. Thousands of their employees still voted for Brexit, and now their secure futures in well-paying, manual, skilled roles are in question. They want, what, "a change", usually, "to shake things up?" I wouldn't even say it's racism or xenophobia, although there's a strain of that in the area. They just want to kick against something, anything? There was a man on the news a few weeks ago who announced he was an asthmatic, and even though Brexit could trigger a shortage of insulin in the country, which meant he would literally die, that he would not change his vote if asked. He said it was important to stand for something.

There's an interesting James Baldwin quote that I keep returning to these days; “I imagine one of the reasons people cling to their hates so stubbornly is because they sense, once hate is gone, they will be forced to deal with pain.”

I think a lot of that kind of hate is being directed towards the EU that has little to nothing to do with it. That there's so little regard or support for the government they wanted to "take back control" says it all. The EU an imperfect institution, as any institution so sprawling tends to be, but it's been modelled into a boogie monster by forces who want to thrive and profit on the worst instincts of society.

That Baldwin quotes reads a little melodramatic, here on a theme park discussion forum. But when I see millions of people voting against their own stability and even opportunities, subsidies and so on, I can't say I get it either. Especially in regards to those dogmatically wanting to pull the trigger before the day is out. Brexit has been horrendous, and has left me with the feeling that not only do we have a rift that nobody wishes to heal, but the whole of British society is undergoing some kind of self-loathing spiritual crisis, beyond politics.

Anyway, thanks for attending my TED Talk.
 
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Plastic Person said:
This is an opinion I used to have, but I have also drifted from it. Somebody's personal politics can't tell you everything about a person, complex as we all are, but it can reveal a lot about their attitude, tolerance and compassion on a wider scale. It's easy to have this opinion if you are technically in a position where Brexit wouldn't really directly affect you, or if like some in this thread, you just seemingly lost all hope and fallen into full-scale misanthropy. But a lot of people don't have this privilege, and I think their experience and vulnerability is worth bearing in mind, too.
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Cough cough like customs clerks...q

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SirDossa said:
At the end of the day, Parliament are doing everything they can to delay/stop Brexit and therefore go against the will of the majority (however small it is deemed to be). This has been the case ever since the referendum result.
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This is absolute nonsense. Parliament have spent the last 3 years working on brexit, they didn't even vote on a deal until 2019! Not because they didn't want to, but because it was never brought to them.

The conservative government kept this deal to themselves, worked on it privately with the input from noone, it's hardly surprising it doesn't have cross party support when it was never even asked what form brexit would take.

Not to mention it is literally their job to scrutinize and evaluate the deals the government bring to the table. That's why we voted for them, to give their opinion on it. That's democracy, our elected representatives vote on things and don't have to agree with the government. Anything less would truly be an outrage.

Parliment do not act as a whole, they are individuals with vastly differing opinions and approaches. That they don't agree is not surprising, nor wrong.
 
It's amazing how few protections there are in this bill, whether those be environmental, workforce, social etc. If we were going to retain them in line with the EU, why wouldn't you put them in the bill? (rhetoric question).

Then you have the "so what" brigade, but there seems to be little acceptance or understanding that by doing so really harms the prospect of an FTA because any such deal is based on standards and protections that are reciprocated between nations.
 
Alsty said:
Except threatening to do something that would be incredibly damaging to yourself is not really a negotiating position.

When you stand to lose 50 trade agreements overnight, whereas the EU loses one, means the cards are stacked entirely in their favour. The EU already know it's a bluff, but if the UK government is crazy enough to follow through then they know the UK will be hurt more. The EU won't just compromise at any cost.
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You're missing the point of negotiation too, we know the EU will not let us leave on WTO terms and will continue to negotiate and give extensions right up until either there is a deal agreed or article 50 is revoked, but one thing they will not do is let us leave without a deal. All the time there was a threat of us leaving on WTO terms they were negotiating, as soon as Jeremy and his cohorts took it off the table, they stopped co-operating.

You do not carry out a negotiation by taking the one thing you know scares the other side shitless out of the negotiation completely.
 
I actually think the EU would let us leave on WTO terms in preference to them compromising the single market, hence my comment.
 
For all their talk, they are not stupid. They know roughly half the country don't want Brexit so everytime it got dodgy, they send someone in to help out the remainers bring a motion, all the time the traitor Bercow is Speaker, they know he will not allow us to leave on WTO terms.
 
Lurker said:
This is absolute nonsense. Parliament have spent the last 3 years working on brexit, they didn't even vote on a deal until 2019! Not because they didn't want to, but because it was never brought to them.

The conservative government kept this deal to themselves, worked on it privately with the input from noone, it's hardly surprising it doesn't have cross party support when it was never even asked what form brexit would take.

Not to mention it is literally their job to scrutinize and evaluate the deals the government bring to the table. That's why we voted for them, to give their opinion on it. That's democracy, our elected representatives vote on things and don't have to agree with the government. Anything less would truly be an outrage.

Parliment do not act as a whole, they are individuals with vastly differing opinions and approaches. That they don't agree is not surprising, nor wrong.
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Parliament have spent the last three years dwindling and dawdling over Brexit but what do we expect given that May was in charge for most of this period? Funny how things have only really started to progress since pro Brexit Boris took over?


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SirDossa said:
Parliament have spent the last three years dwindling and dawdling over Brexit but what do we expect given that May was in charge for most of this period? Funny how things have only really started to progress since pro Brexit Boris took over?


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I wouldn't say we have had progress, more the eu have gone "screw this"

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