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The Brexit Thread

IanSR said:
Erm no, I didn't get a say in the Scottish Independent Referendum, so no, just no.
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You don't live in Scotland. My workmate has been here 15 years and is allowed to vote on Scottish matters but not the Brexit referendum. 16/17 year olds are also allowed to vote on Scottish matters. It's the Conservative government who doesn't allow them the vote as they know younger people aren't likely to vote for them.
 
The first referendum was advisory, and instruction for the government to 'implement' whatever it wanted. If there is another referendum, it should be a legally binding trigger, or cancellation of Brexit.

The referendum was probably won at just about the last point in time it would have been given the demographic. There isn't a new generation of Murdoch media readers coming through, and this is what terrifies the right-wing, millionaire, privately-educated men that are its leading advocates.

I'd have to side with Blair, who says that if Brexit is the issue stuck in limbo, go back to the people on Brexit alone in a referendum. A first-past-the-post election with a weak popular mandate for the winner should not be the way forward. If you're against another referendum then you should be against another election until 2022.
 
There isn't a new generation of Murdock media readers coming through???
Says who?
Just because the print versions are fading away, they still sadly get their message out loud and clear.
The right wing breeds, always has.
 
Tom said:
The first referendum was advisory, and instruction for the government to 'implement' whatever it wanted. If there is another referendum, it should be a legally binding trigger, or cancellation of Brexit.

The referendum was probably won at just about the last point in time it would have been given the demographic. There isn't a new generation of Murdoch media readers coming through, and this is what terrifies the right-wing, millionaire, privately-educated men that are its leading advocates.

I'd have to side with Blair, who says that if Brexit is the issue stuck in limbo, go back to the people on Brexit alone in a referendum. A first-past-the-post election with a weak popular mandate for the winner should not be the way forward. If you're against another referendum then you should be against another election until 2022.
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Ah yes let’s all side with the war criminal Blair..I think he’s caused enough damage.

The issue about reducing the age of voters seems to sometimes correspond with the belief that the older generation of voters shouldn’t be allow to vote which is an outrageous sentiment.The amount of comments I’ve seen online/in the media from the tolerant (not so) left about this issue is mind boggling.


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Your statement seems somewhat contradictory. You don't like the idea of voting rights being removed from the older generations but are happy for it to be removed from the youngest?

Why shouldn't the young be allowed to vote? After all, it's their future that is most affected.
 
Rick said:
@SirDossa @IanSR I am not a proponent of a second referendum, I am not sure how the result would go, either. I think predictions that Remain would come thumping home are a little naive.

The Brexit that was promised has gone (or you may argue never existed). If this particular deal had been put forward in 2016, rather than a load of meaningless rhetoric - I really don't think it would have won. We'll never know about then - but we could find out if it's acceptable to the country now - I think if anyone was able to convince me a referendum on the deal is sensible, that would be the basis of the argument.

If Remain had won on 52/48, there's no way we'd have cracked on adopting the single currency, integrating with Schengen etc - the Johnson deal is essentially the same thing the other way around.

I don't understand how more democracy is undemocratic. I struggle with that notion.
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Some good points there. I struggle with the notion though that more democracy is at play here though. I mean if we look at Labour’s recent behaviour in Parliament;

Blocked three deals and then blocked “no deal”
Blocked a People’s vote because they wanted an election
Blocked an election
Said they would do anything to stop no deal and then opposed Boris’s deal regardless of content.



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Alsty said:
Your statement seems somewhat contradictory. You don't like the idea of voting rights being removed from the older generations but are happy for it to be removed from the youngest?

Why shouldn't the young be allowed to vote? After all, it's their future that is most affected.
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I never said anything about removing rights..but I think things should remain as they are.


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Ok, let me rephrase it.

You are happy with voting rights being given to the older generations but are not happy for it to be given to the youngest?
 
Alsty said:
Ok, let me rephrase it.

You are happy with voting rights being given to the older generations but are not happy for it to be given to the youngest?
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I wouldn’t say that I would be unhappy if 16 year olds upwards were given the right to vote but I also don’t think it’s something that desperately needs to happen.


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speedy said:
You don't live in Scotland. My workmate has been here 15 years and is allowed to vote on Scottish matters but not the Brexit referendum. 16/17 year olds are also allowed to vote on Scottish matters. It's the Conservative government who doesn't allow them the vote as they know younger people aren't likely to vote for them.
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You did not make that clear originally, you said you wanted all EU nationals to have the vote too, not just those who live and work here.

The Conservatives (and Labour too) don't allow children to vote because because they know that children and adolescents do not often have the mental capacity to separate emotion from rationality and can be easily manipulated, as evident by the hysterical outbursts you see whenever the enviroment is mentioned to them, it has nothing to do with them fearing that they will not vote for them.
 
IanSR said:
children and adolescents do not often have the mental capacity to separate emotion from rationality and can be easily manipulated
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I would question if adults are any better at this.

For example, some Leave voters wanted to leave the EU because they were fed up of European laws being foisted upon us. However when asked to give examples they were unable to do so, suggesting this was an emotional response rather than a logical one.
 
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*DISCLAIMER* THIS IS A JOKE AND NOT MEANT TO BE A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE WHO MAY BE OFFENDED
 
Alsty said:
I would question if adults are any better at this.

For example, some Leave voters wanted to leave the EU because they were fed up of European laws being foisted upon us. However when asked to give examples they were unable to do so, suggesting this was an emotional response rather than a logical one.
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I wouldn't disagree with that viewpoint either, since you just described my brother-in-law perfectly, do you know him perhaps? LOL
 
SirDossa said:
Ah yes let’s all side with the war criminal Blair..I think he’s caused enough damage.
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It's irrelevant who said it. I was merely attributing effectively word-for-word quotes of a point I agree with.

SirDossa said:
The issue about reducing the age of voters seems to sometimes correspond with the belief that the older generation of voters shouldn’t be allow to vote which is an outrageous sentiment.The amount of comments I’ve seen online/in the media from the tolerant (not so) left about this issue is mind boggling.
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I made no argument of lowering or capping the voting age, rather that I believe there is a dying of a Murduch-led generation of views. Many people make the case of lowering or maintaining the voting age purely because they feel it will help achieve the result they want. I however believe that if you're in the system in most meaningful ways by 16/17 - taxation etc - then you should be permitted to vote.

You're also conflating leftism with liberalism and conservatism/facsism with leftism and rightism respectively. Those pairings don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, and often don't.
 
SirDossa said:
Ah yes let’s all side with the war criminal Blair..I think he’s caused enough damage.
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Let's all side with Boris Johnson who illegally prorogued parliament in order to get a Queen's speech prepared. He said it was for up to a year's worth of desperately needed legislation as part of his 'exciting domestic agenda'. Less than 60 seconds after the vote was passed he called for an election that would void the entire programme, before it even started.
 
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Something needs sorting....anything!

will we now get an election on 12th December ? Could we end up in a worse position then we are now as a result of said election
 
IanSR said:
children and adolescents do not often have the mental capacity to separate emotion from rationality and can be easily manipulated, as evident by the hysterical outbursts you see whenever the enviroment is mentioned to them
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You could say the same for some of the older generation and their hysterics whenever someone asks to be called by a different pronoun :p
 
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