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The Brexit Thread
- Thread starter Matt N
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Rick
TS Member
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Which ones inhibit you from doing something that you want to do? Which ones could you change that wouldn't affect our regularity alignment which would be the basis for future trade?
Alsty
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I'm still waiting for this to be answered:
It doesn't matter!
As far as I can tell...nothing!
It's not about that, it's about the principle of another country having greater authority (than the UK) over us, I think it's wrong and should be stopped!
speedy
TS Member
No country has authority over us. We democratically elect people to represent us in the EU. We have as much power as the other countries in the EU.
I'll give you one example of why I want to remain: travel. I want to keep travel as easy as possible. Leaving the EU may make it harder for me to work there in the future.
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Alsty
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Am I understanding you correctly... you don't want EU laws, but you don't have a problem with any of them?
Benzin
TS Member
Why can we never have an actual straight answer to questions from those who want to leave?
You wonder why Remainers are annoyed? It's because of simple questions like "what EU laws don't you agree with?" having a response of "it doesn't matter"... It's absolute rubbish and prevents any form of actual debate and potential understanding from happening between the two sides...
The UK always had individual sovereignty (every EU country does), it just chose not to utilise a lot of it, especially in terms of immigration... Leaving could in fact open our borders even further when most of the EU nationals pack up and leave and we're left with a massive gap in the workforce...
You wonder why Remainers are annoyed? It's because of simple questions like "what EU laws don't you agree with?" having a response of "it doesn't matter"... It's absolute rubbish and prevents any form of actual debate and potential understanding from happening between the two sides...
The UK always had individual sovereignty (every EU country does), it just chose not to utilise a lot of it, especially in terms of immigration... Leaving could in fact open our borders even further when most of the EU nationals pack up and leave and we're left with a massive gap in the workforce...
I'm a remainer and I can think of at least one law I'd rather we at least altered. However we had a veto on this law, and the UK decided to enact it. So I guess it's the direction the UK wants to go too.
I think Remainers are often accused of not knowing what the EU is, and what they do. I think both sides can be ignorant or the intricate workings, as they are complex and distant. Of course I see the bureaucracy, and the other negatives of the EU. But the EU has also granted me rights I am grateful for, solved issues I was passionate about, and continue to stand up for their union and their values, and I think the positives really favourably outweighs the negatives.
I don't think it's about am example of a law to remove, as that can be done from within the EU anyway. For Brexit to be worth it we have to see a wholesale shift in direction, but towards what? Remains to be seen, though most brexiteers seem to favour adopting Americanisms. I worry about the Havoc American style Capitalism will cause the country.
My Question to brexiteers then : which values and fundamental systems are to be changed? If we are free from the EU the whole country can revolutionise, so what will we become? What are the sunlit uplands promised but never described.
Rick
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This is very true - great post.
For me Brexit is not a solution to something, it's only a credible action if you have consensus for taking the country in a direction that you can't take within the EU and there seems to be a number of competing directions.
If I look at the top five things in this country that I would like to change or improve, I don't think any of those changes are made easier by leaving, a number will be far harder.
@Britford The NHS is being kept afloat by immigration of skilled labour, it's not suffering because of it. Most immigrants are in their 20s and early 30s, not prime age for bed blocking or having complex medical needs, but absolutely perfect for working night shifts caring, cleaning and doing all the stuff we can't supply workers to do ourselves.
Source
Moreso, the NHS employs ~1.2m people. 65,000 NHS staff in England are EU nationals - 5.5% of all staff. Overall, 13.1% of NHS staff are not British. That is not insignificant, it's actually pretty eye opening. Source
According to NHS Improvement, there are currently 39,500 nursing vacancies in the NHS in England. How can you possibly think that reducing immigration is going to help that number when a population of 500 million can come here tomorrow, if they chose to...? We still don't have enough people to look after an ageing population and properly staff an institution that is quite rightly the envy of so many nations. Our aspiration should be to meet the staffing shortage, not quell the patient demand because with a country with an age demographic like ours, you never will.
It makes me so mad to live in a world where the facts don't matter anymore, let alone the truth. For the record, I don't even enjoy responding to this stuff anymore, but not doing so gives all this babble legs.
The issue may 'seem' to be immigration, but your Daily Mail lied to you, I'm afraid.
We absolutely should talk about it, but many people aren't interested in having a discussion or debate. They only want to repeat a soundbite, a headline or a feeling, without looking at the evidence and coming to an informed view. It's very depressing.
I still fully stand by my previous point!
The more people who enter into the system, the more staff we need to stay on top of it and clearly, the immigrants are not filling those roles. (if they were, we wouldn't have a crisis would we?)
What about that argument is wrong or unclear, how is the logic not sound?
Rick
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See previous post.
Brad97
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The crisis with the NHS primarily stems from a lack of funding and investment from the Tories in power, not immigrants.
Immigrants are a net benefit to the system, but the Daily Mail/Sun etc. wouldn't tell you that of course as they need you to hate them to fuel their agenda.
speedy
TS Member
...the more tax which will be paid into it and the more people who are available to staff it.
bluesonichd
TS Member
Until Labour tax the hell out of companies so they reduce wages, lay off staff, no longer grow and invest and make money .. all equals less money for the government ... RIP NHS budget
Rick
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speedy
TS Member
As already pointed out to you in the GE thread, the UK corporation tax is actually pretty low compared to other countries.
Then why is it failing? Why aren't the immigrants sustaining the NHS?
I reject the "aging population" line, it's just an excuse to avoid having to question the gospel of multiculturalism. If it were just old white men, then wouldn't the NHS already have over grown the issue by now?
Since mass immigration is a net gain and all...
I know what your all going to say, "something something BORIS BAD up budget"
If immigration is a net gain? Then why is it getting worse and worse by the day even though the budget is not going down by the day?
And if we upped the budget, what would change that freezes the issue?
John
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As has been repeatedly pointed out, migrants are generally young, healthy people who work. They therefore contribute to the economy and will make little use of the NHS for many years after arriving. Meanwhile, the overall population is aging, with more and more elderly people in and out of hospital every month racking up huge costs to the NHS.
When the NHS was set up healthcare was a relatively cheap affair. Far fewer conditions were treatable and life expectancy was much lower. Now we have drugs costing thousands or tens of thousands per patient and everyone thinks they're entitled to money-no-object treatment for every condition, regardless of how effective said treatment is likely to be.
You could easily argue that the current situation is unsustainable and that simply throwing more money at the NHS won't really solve the underlying issues but that's another debate altogether. The idea that the problem is caused by migration simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
When the NHS was set up healthcare was a relatively cheap affair. Far fewer conditions were treatable and life expectancy was much lower. Now we have drugs costing thousands or tens of thousands per patient and everyone thinks they're entitled to money-no-object treatment for every condition, regardless of how effective said treatment is likely to be.
You could easily argue that the current situation is unsustainable and that simply throwing more money at the NHS won't really solve the underlying issues but that's another debate altogether. The idea that the problem is caused by migration simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
Benzin
TS Member
#ProjectFear
How can one reject the notion that there's an ageing population? Given that we've got to the point where the Baby Boomer gen are hitting the age of often requiring further treatment... Not like there's censuses or surveys which prove that (and because people my age can't afford to have kids or generally don't want to)..
That also stems from us generally living longer due to medical advances etc, which means that there is more pressure put onto these services as the numbers using them don't decrease as in previous years/generations...