Rick
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Crux
Indeed, I thought the same when Boris put Dan Hannan in the Lords this week.
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The Brexit Thread
- Thread starter Matt N
- Start date
Dave
TS Founding Member
The EU are very good negotiators, leaving things until last minute has not changed their strategy (they had this scenario factored in a long time ago, it’s how they always negotiate).
They know Johnson has to take home a fake win, some morsel for the tabloids will be offered but as it stands it looks like the UK had backed down on most points.
So long as Murdoch keeps his control of uk politics and the rest get their tax breaks they will be happy and tell the British public how great it is. Even though we have already lost billions off the economy.
Thankfully it’s mostly not my problem as I don’t work in an industry impacted much by Brexit from a job security point of view. If it makes a few people enjoy waving union flags and sing “rule Britannia” louder whilst being screwed with their pants on then that’s fine.
pluk
TS Member
It'd be somewhat disingenuous to suggest that both sides don't have very strong negotiating capability at this level. Both sides will obviously claim to have got the important bits of what they wanted, and it's probably true that they have, such is the nature of compromise.
Early indications are the European Court holding no power over disputes, which was what we wanted, and access to our waters being allowed in line with already agreed (and paid for by foreign companies) fishing rights, which was (probably unreasonably) not what we wanted, but with a reduction in a European quotas over time as a reasonable sounding compromise. Devil will be in the detail...
Dave
TS Founding Member
If rumours are true we have capitulated on most of the fishing demands (which is sensible, the fishing agenda was a massive white elephant anyway). Level playing field and standards seem to be mostly in line with the EU. The EU knew they wouldn’t get their courts to have sole jurisdiction, it was one of the things they had in their pocket to give Johnson a win.
pluk
TS Member
Here is the government's statement: "Everything that the British public was promised during the 2016 referendum and in the general election last year is delivered by this deal."
"We have taken back control of our money, borders, laws, trade and our fishing waters
"The deal is fantastic news for families and businesses in every part of the UK.
"We have signed the first free trade agreement based on zero tariffs and zero quotas that has ever been achieved with the EU.
"The deal is the biggest bilateral trade deal signed by either side, covering trade worth £668bn in 2019.
"The deal also guarantees that we are no longer in the lunar pull of the EU, we are not bound by EU rules, there is no role for the European Court of Justice and all of our key red lines about returning sovereignty have been achieved.
"It means that we will have full political and economic independence on 1st January 2021."
"A points-based immigration system will put us in full control of who enters the UK and free movement will end.
"We have delivered this great deal for the entire United Kingdom in record time, and under extremely challenging conditions, which protects the integrity of our internal market and Northern Ireland’s place within it.
"We have got Brexit done and we can now take full advantage of the fantastic opportunities available to us as an independent trading nation, striking trade deals with other partners around the world."
"We have taken back control of our money, borders, laws, trade and our fishing waters
"The deal is fantastic news for families and businesses in every part of the UK.
"We have signed the first free trade agreement based on zero tariffs and zero quotas that has ever been achieved with the EU.
"The deal is the biggest bilateral trade deal signed by either side, covering trade worth £668bn in 2019.
"The deal also guarantees that we are no longer in the lunar pull of the EU, we are not bound by EU rules, there is no role for the European Court of Justice and all of our key red lines about returning sovereignty have been achieved.
"It means that we will have full political and economic independence on 1st January 2021."
"A points-based immigration system will put us in full control of who enters the UK and free movement will end.
"We have delivered this great deal for the entire United Kingdom in record time, and under extremely challenging conditions, which protects the integrity of our internal market and Northern Ireland’s place within it.
"We have got Brexit done and we can now take full advantage of the fantastic opportunities available to us as an independent trading nation, striking trade deals with other partners around the world."
Dave
TS Founding Member
Well that says a whole lot of nothing really. The EU have told french media that we have given in on most things and I am sure our government is doing the same here.
It will be days of spin to distract people from the detail. I do wonder though if part of Johnson’s plan to do this last minute is to bounce his MP’s into a fast decision. There seems to be some nervousness from the staunch brexit flank of the Tory party about the details of the deal, and as much as he pretends to be Johnson is not that ideologically beholden to brexit, he just saw an opportunity to get some power.
Glad there is a deal though, the damage of Brexit is already high enough, we really couldn’t have handled a no deal as well as covid.
Rick
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Crux
I'm glad there is a deal, but it doesn't feel like anything to celebrate, really.
I hope after Covid there is a better understanding of the plans to do more with our new circumstances, that seems to have been lacking since the referendum.
As I listen to Boris say things will be "different" that doesn't really cut it. He listed a load of things we could now do, that we could already do.
I am half expecting him to get a bent banana out of the lectern and start waving it around.
I hope after Covid there is a better understanding of the plans to do more with our new circumstances, that seems to have been lacking since the referendum.
As I listen to Boris say things will be "different" that doesn't really cut it. He listed a load of things we could now do, that we could already do.
I am half expecting him to get a bent banana out of the lectern and start waving it around.
Dave
TS Founding Member
Not sure where the details are coming from but there is already a lot of grumbling on the side of the pro-brexit lobby that the deal is not what they wanted. I think regardless of your vote in 2016 the brexit fatigue is high and I really hope these people don’t drag this divisive argument on for even longer.
Alsty
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Fury 325
Well, some people will be upset we've given the EU anything at all. I'm sure some would've liked us to walk away without even settling our divorce bill.
However I think the majority of people living in the real world understand that you can't have something for nothing.
However I think the majority of people living in the real world understand that you can't have something for nothing.
It doesn’t really matter who compromised the most both have had too to some extent, that’s what happens in a negotiation.
I’m glad there is a deal and it seems to be a fair one so hopefully we can move on from here whatever way anyone voted.
The deal will go through as Labour have backed themselves into a corner where they can’t vote against it whatever the details are.
I’m glad there is a deal and it seems to be a fair one so hopefully we can move on from here whatever way anyone voted.
The deal will go through as Labour have backed themselves into a corner where they can’t vote against it whatever the details are.
Dave
TS Founding Member
I don’t Labour will have a problem voting for it, its as good as they where expecting based on a first glance.
Probably not well unfortunately
imanautie
TS Member
Which one?...
BarryZola
TS Member
This country needs enough foreign workers who are willing to accept lower wages. Without them a lot of businesses cease to exist which means less money for the treasury. The Gov't will make sure there are various ways for enough workers to get in to enable this part of the economy to function.
Rick
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Crux
That's not what I was referring to, I was meaning the sale of services to the EU as opposed to goods.
Any services that we sell to the EU, as best as I can tell, this only covers goods.
AstroDan
TS Team
- Favourite Ride
- Steel Vengeance, Cedar Point
Although my fundamental views on Brexit remain unchanged, I am, in the end, glad that we're not heading for the worse case scenario. Frankly, there are many out there who don't have a grasp on how the real world actually works, and so compromises have been made on both sides.
I still maintain an uncertain worry regarding what the benefits of all this will be to my life, but I now trust and hope that there will be some to come - at some stage.
I did feel a sense of relief yesterday and hope that we can now start to lose the heat in the argument. Sadly, though the SNP and no doubt ERG hardliners won't let that happen.
I still maintain an uncertain worry regarding what the benefits of all this will be to my life, but I now trust and hope that there will be some to come - at some stage.
I did feel a sense of relief yesterday and hope that we can now start to lose the heat in the argument. Sadly, though the SNP and no doubt ERG hardliners won't let that happen.
..... erm, why? Why can’t we train people who live here to become doctors and nurses”, Why can’t we pay people who pick fruit and veg a decent wage even if it means we pay a little more in the shops....
Why do we have to be reliant on an imported “cheap” workforce who may live 12 to a house while they work in the fields before they head back home. To me that’s slavery not a job.
Rick
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Crux
We do an awful lot of training, but not enough which comes down to money & capacity. The state massively subsidises medical training, sometimes up to 90% of the cost of a 10 year doctor programme. From a capacity perspective, you need medical students and junior doctors to have supervised access to patients in Teaching trusts and that's difficult to scale for lots of obvious reasons.
On top of this, our ageing population and the sheer number of vacancies in the health sector means we have a requirement for these staff now, therefore politically and practically it's difficult to say "We'll start the training now" because we need these people in 2020, not 2030. Short sighted? Absolutely.
There are British people who work in agriculture, but it's a sector that has used migrant labour extensively. Pre-pandemic the employment figures were pretty good (you can argue how many of those roles were 'not ideal' - in terms of being zero hour contracts, Gig economy jobs etc), but there was good employment prospects in most sectors, so much so that there were huge numbers of vacancies even with all those pesky foreigners.
You position the scenario as if there are thousands of British people fighting for those jobs in the fields but I see no evidence that is the case. With good, permanent employment prospects across our core sectors, you would need a compelling reason for someone earning minimum wage + tips in Costa Coffee to move to the arse end of Lincolnshire for a temporary, seasonal job that's incredibly hard work, outdoors. When I was fruit picking in Australia, there wasn't a single Aussie on the farm. It's the exact same thing.
On both fronts, I don't understand this fortress mentality. Who loses out? All this stuff is directly out of the UKIP candidate handbook ... and this is the problem with Brexit. All this stuff that people think they were voting to put an end to will continue to perpetuate and further expand (and could arguably get worse).
I think you've missed the point here. Yes you are correct, British people are not fighting for jobs in the fields. Why? Because the farms rely on the cheap labour they can get from Europe. These are people who are poor, who travel into the country, rent a large house, live 12 or so in one house, for a few months to earn the money and then go back home. As a British person, would you want to live like this? My argument is that we should expect to pay a bit more for our "cheap" fruit and veg so that we can support people who work in this industry so they can get paid more, can have a decent standard of living and so that the farmers are not dependant on cheap labour from other countries.
And for me its not fortress mentality, I just have never understood why we have to be so dependant on other countries for workforce. Like you said about medicine, we used to have a good steady stream of medical school graduates every year without relying on staff from other countries. Then the bursaries got cut, and schools favoured students from other countries as they can make more money from them. Conditions in the NHS also went downhill, with poor wages, stress, poor working conditions.
So again,the hospitals like the farms rely on imported labour to work in these poor conditions rather than support people in the country who want to train to be doctors and nurses, and pay them a decent wage, and sort out of the NHS. Importing cheap labour is just a quick fix to hide the fundamental problems underneath.
So my mentality is not to stop everyone coming here to work, but we should not have to rely on it. If anything the covid pandemic and recent border closure with France has taught us, its that the UK should be more self sufficient and not so reliant on other countries.