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The Brexit Thread

Dangerous Dave called the referendum with the arrogance that a victory for Remain was definitely in the bag. He probably thought that when he achieved this, he would go down as a Tory God, the only leader to successfully slay that beast that is the famous Tory rift over Europe that has claimed the scalps of leaders before him.

What that ignorant bafoon, and many of his Eton educated elitist chums failed to realise (and Continue to by the way) was that the world has changed significantly since the financial crash. The voiceless are now being heard, the result is Trump, Corbyn, Brexit, even the rise of discount supermarkets.

Dave had no plan because he was so cock sure of a victory. What kind of a Prime Minister risks the future of the country like that for his own career without a plan? His solution when it became apparent he'd done all this? Run for the hills and leave the crap for someone else to clear up. How responsible and statesman like of him.

When parliament voted to trigger article 50, the government should have simply written to the EU with the UK default position which should have been preparing for a no deal scanario. Isn't that what we elect them to do, to plan for worse case scanarios for us and protect us?

Something along the lines of "Dear EU. We will be leaving on 29th March 2019, we won't be putting any tarrifs on your goods, we hope you will reciprocate. All EU nationals residing here will be granted permanent residency and Northern Ireland will remain in the customs Union to prevent a hard border (bearing in mind there was no DUP to worry about back then). You know where we are if you want to discuss anything." We then could have spent 2 years signing trade deals and preparing for Brexit whilst the EU leaders, panicking about a domino effect and car manufacturing jobs in France and Germany would have ran to us with all sorts of generous offers whilst we would have been left with much better options.

But we all know that didn't happen.
 
Think the issue there is that if we offered the EU no tariffs on goods, the USA and China would turn up and demand the same... Which wouldn't work out positively for us...

That said, a plan of action should've been put in place prior to Article 50, which is why we're in such a mess... Everyone (including Corbyn) wanted it activated on the day of the results, which in turn basically put us on a back foot in any negotiations because we were/are leaving regardless...

That said, those involved in said negotiations were utterly useless... Never expected to hear a politician sound surprised how important Dover is as a port, let alone the ferry company with no ferries contract...

That said, I don't think the EU and the European car manufacturers would've been completely under panic stations even if we'd been slightly sensible... Unless British Leyland is being resurrected?

Someone at work thinks if we stay Germany will leave because they're sick of holding it up, which is... Well no idea where that thought has come from, unless it's linking the rise of the far right amongst the countries and Merkel leaving soon...

In regards to the bus, there's no doubt that swayed some opinions, purely because of the lack of Remain bothering to go "well we DO send that much, but here's how much we get off them in return"...
 
Benzin said:
Think the issue there is that if we offered the EU no tariffs on goods, the USA and China would turn up and demand the same... Which wouldn't work out positively for us
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You've got that the wrong way round, It's up to the importing Country to impose import duty, the US and China could at any time declare imports from the EU as zero rated, much the opposite to how Trump increased import duty from the EU and China into the USA last year, what we do import duty wise with goods from the EU would have little impact on America or how they apply their import tariffs.

Now, if the EU were to declare all imports into the EU from the UK as zero rated, yes, this would get America and China (and probably every other Country on the planets) backs up.

China used to have zero rated import duty on almost everything, it was a great way for them to get items in to copy, since copyright law doesn't exist there, it's only very recently they put huge tariffs on scrap plastic etc. because they're producing more and more themselves and don't need our crap anymore.
 
Brexit2044.jpg
 
Any other Scots on TowersStreet?

So we are maybe leaving the EU. How is leaving the UK going to benefit us after Brexit? I think it's a crazy idea. We would either have the Euro (yay I have to change my money every time I go to England) or our own currency (I have to change my currency no matter where I go. If I travel from Scotland to Europe overground, I need TWO currencies...). I've even seen suggestions that we should build a hard border.

I'd love to hear your thoughts if you have any on an independant Scotland after Brexit. IMO yeah British politics are bad, but there's no evidence that the SNP would be any better and we're creating yet more artificial borders.
 
I live in Scotland, and honestly the whole independnace movement is so dumb. Scotland is more dependent on close connections with the rest of the UK, which in turn benefits from close connections with the EU. If Scotland was to leave the UK and the UK leave the EU, that just builds a whole load of barriers between trade, travel, etc.
 
Look what's back from the dead!

Anyway, what's your opinion on last night? I am frankly horrified at what happened.
They passed into law a bill that makes it illegal to leave without a deal! now, they have 100% power over our brexit and are free to simply not make us a deal! (and refuse to honor the may deal)and there we go, no more brexit!

But even then, we won't go back into the remain stage, we will be in a permanent extension period that costs over 1 BILLION PER MONTH of taxpayer money! This, ofcouse, being BEFORE they decide to increase the price of extension to...let's start at 3 bil a day, I mean...why not?
Ofcouse, it will only be until they, of their own good grace, decide to generously make us ANY deal AT ALL and unless we take whatever slavery contract they allow us to have, no brexit!

Obviously it won't end there, now brexit is cancelled, they dont have to treat us fairly. "Free movement? Now all brits must pay £2000 into the EU budget each time they pass a border" "That trade we allocated you, I'm sure the French would appreciate that WAY more!"
"I know, let's demand more funding from the UK, I mean...what are they gonna do? LEAVE?!"
And why should they offer us a good deal, when they can just write "abolish all UK government and transfer power to us" on a napkin and give us that!?

Honestly, I can't understand why more people aren't worried about this?
 
Britford said:
But even then, we won't go back into the remain stage, we will be in a permanent extension period that costs over 1 BILLION PER MONTH of taxpayer money! This, ofcouse, being BEFORE they decide to increase the price of extension to...let's start at 3 bil a day, I mean...why not?
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Are you high on the unicorn dust that Brexit promised as well?

Britford said:
Now all brits must pay £2000 into the EU budget each time they pass a border"
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That's more likely to happen if we leave.....


I'm not entirely sure where you plucked Brexit being cancelled from either? Although that would be superb. Perhaps we can stop throwing copious amounts of money at it and the Leave.EU marketing propaganda and perhaps spend it on our NHS instead like that big red bus promised?
 
If it's well and truly cancelled (it isn't, as much as I'd like it to be so we can all get on with our lives), we'd just revoke article 50 and things would mostly go back to the original workings we had with the EU...

As it is currently, our sovereign parliament have taken steps to ensure that the country isn't left dead in the water come the current leaving date... Not our fault that the Tories decimated their own majority of... Zero after the defecting MP went to the Lib Dems...
 
This mess is solely the fault of the Leave MPs promising things that couldn't be delivered and then getting caught out failing to deliver them. The easiest deal in history, which now means no deal apparently...

Anyway, the action last night would not have been required if:
  • Boris Johnson was negotiating in good faith with the EU. He has not come up with any plans to resolve the perceived problems with the backstop.
  • Boris Johnson had not prorogued parliament, thus bypassing parliamentary scrutiny and forcing through his vision.
In fact he's being disingenuous by suggesting he is negotiating when it's obvious to everyone he's actually just running down the clock.

That is why parliament took the action it did. Because Boris cannot be trusted.
 
Danny said:
Are you high on the unicorn dust that Brexit promised as well?
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Give it a rest!
Danny said:
That's more likely to happen if we leave.....
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My point is that they can now do that, if they so chose, with no repercussions.
Danny said:
I'm not entirely sure where you plucked Brexit being cancelled from either? Although that would be superb. Perhaps we can stop throwing copious amounts of money at it and the Leave.EU marketing propaganda and perhaps spend it on our NHS instead like that big red bus promised?
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And now, thanks to the new law, we can't even do that! Instead, we have to keep paying the extension cost every month.

The only way to stop doing that is to either, officially cancil brexit, which as the will of the people, would be anti democratic for our democratic government to do!
Or
Have the house of commons vote for what ever surrender deal they grant us but that won't happen because the majority of said house, wants to stop any form of brexit at any and all costs!

Benzin said:
If it's well and truly cancelled (it isn't, as much as I'd like it to be so we can all get on with our lives), we'd just revoke article 50 and things would mostly go back to the original workings we had with the EU...
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but as above, article 50 is the democratic will of the people and can't simply be overturned.
Benzin said:
As it is currently, our sovereign parliament have taken steps to ensure that the country isn't left dead in the water come the current leaving date... Not our fault that the Tories decimated their own majority of... Zero after the defecting MP went to the Lib Dems...
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By leaving our country dead in the water...

Alsty said:
This mess is solely the fault of the Leave MPs promising things that couldn't be delivered
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What did he promise that "couldn't be delivered"?
 
It never was the will of the people though.
It was the will of 51% of the electorate that actually voted, not the will of the people at all...The will of quite a few of the electorate doesn't have the same ring to it.
This is one clucked up mess.
Nobody to blame but the tosser Cameron, who should be wearing his goolies as earrings.
 
Whatever happens. We are done for.

Sent from my SM-J600FN using Tapatalk
 
I must say, I did not expect this sort of outcome when I created this thread back in March!

In terms of my opinions on Brexit; I've got to admit, whether it's rational or not, the whole situation at the moment has me genuinely quite worried. While I do admire that Boris Johnson clearly has very clear plans and a clear agenda, a no-deal Brexit could potentially be catastrophic. Most of the evidence points to quite a substantial recession that would occur following a no-deal Brexit, and the things mentioned in the Operation Yellowhammer leak at the end of August like food shortages, road chaos and medicine shortages amongst other things really are very serious and could have repercussions on this country for years to come. Granted, the government has said that Operation Yellowhammer is a worst case scenario, but I think that's the sort of thing we should be working to prevent, and I personally think that the risk of these types of crises happening would be too high. Of course, I could be wrong, and no-deal Brexit could prove to be absolutely fine, but I just think that the level of risk involved is too high. Thankfully, the new law that should be passed soon will prevent that for the time being, but I'm unsure if that law is permanent or whether it will expire after the first extension as the last one did.

In terms of what the best solution would be; despite having supported remaining in the EU throughout the process (and if I were old enough to vote, I would very much support remaining), I think that the best solution would be to bring back Theresa May's deal with amendments, or attempt some kind of negotiations with Brussels to form a completely new agreement if that fails. Leaving the EU with a deal would be the best of both worlds; it doesn't carry as big of a risk as no-deal Brexit would, but it also honours the 2016 referendum result. I would always pick to remain in the EU, personally, but we need to honour the result and honour it in a way that satisfies the highest possible percentage of the population. Thankfully, I think that this could definitely occur; Boris Johnson has said that he's going to negotiate with the EU at the next summit, so we could very well have a satisfying deal by 31st October!

I personally think that we will find a solution of some sort sooner than everyone thinks, and that it should all work out in the end, but I can sense that the next couple of months could provide us with a very bumpy ride in terms of politics...
 
rob666 said:
It never was the will of the people though.
It was the will of 51% of the electorate that actually voted, not the will of the people at all...
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If you don't vote (and everyone is entitled to) then you are forfeiting your say in the matter. So yes, it is the will of the people only in as much as every election result ever.


This whole Brexit mess is rife with contradictions on all sides, amplified by the ridiculous way it is portrayed in most media.

The EU is portrayed as left wing and the referendum as Nigel Farage's personal pet project, etc. Yet the EU is most helpful to global corporatism, the big thing that left wingers and right wingers (if you want to think in those clunky terms) agree is a bad thing for society.

Membership of the EU was never agreed upon democraticaly, it was snuck in the back door out of a mostly completely different concept. The Leave vote was the only democratic result over membership of the EU. Yet suspending Parliament gets people shouting the death of "democracy". Not that I agree with suspending parliament in principle but what hypocrisy.

The EU demand transfer of its members' powers to the Union, and its leaders cannot be democratically elected or removed. Yet it is supported by crowds of people denouncing Boris Johnson as an "unelected PM", who came into power the same way Gordon Brown (and, technically, every PM the UK has ever has).

And of course the misinformation spread by both sides, the widespread poor quality of debate before and answer. Nearly any time the EU is debated, the actual pros and cons of political unions and the EU itself are almost NEVER the topic of conversation.
 
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Whether you want to leave or remain, I think the whole country is sick and tired of the whole Brexit and just wish it comes to some sort of conclusion before we all self destruct.

Matt N said:
but we need to honour the result and honour it in a way that satisfies the highest possible percentage of the population.
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That was back in 2016. A lot has change since then.

There are voters that have now kicked the bucket
There are now people that are now old enough to be eligible to vote
Voters have change there minds (it goes both ways)
We now have a clearer picture of what Brexit will en-tale and the impact it will have on us all.
The lies on both sides of the argument have all been exposed

If the politicians can't sort it out, put the vote back to the people and let us decide
 
RoyJess said:
That was back in 2016. A lot has change since then.
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It would certainly be interesting in whether the result would be any different today. But as you say the changes go both ways. We have no real idea what the outcome would be and anyone saying it would 'definitely' be Remain now are being misleading.

I am all for re-running the referendum after a period of 10ish years when initial struggle period is over (things get worse in the short term in order to get better in the long term—that's life) and there has been time to evalutate what's changed. But doing it before the UK has even left is very suspicious.

Who knows, it might end up a big mistake or it might not. We still haven't learnt anything about it because we havnt got to that point yet. Could always learn from the other European countries that arent full EU members, who seem to be doing just fine. All we've learnt is our own government are rubbish!
 
It won’t happen now on October - it then won’t happen on January

The problem is politicians worrying about their own careers as opposed to sorting this mess out.

I’m a remainer - and that opinion won’t change BUT I wish now that a resolution happens and if we are to leave we do it one way or another by the end of October

Life goes on, life finds a way. It will be tough for a while but we will all survive.

We may thrive.

But on thing for sure is we cannot go on like this. It’s killing the economy.

On another note - surely it’s time to look at the voting system. Make in compulsory to vote or you get fined ? The fine come straight from your salary / benefit payment, no disputes. Or if you don’t vote you can’t vote again? In this day and age there is absolutely no excuse not to vote. There are enough polling stations, postal votes exist. It’s only s matter of time before you can vote online.

We would simply not be in this mess if more people had voted, no matter what the outcome. The issue is you have 49% of the population that didn’t speak. When your dealing with a near 50/50 split as they are currently your never going to please all parties and get this over the line.

A Great British Bollock this really is! And to think we genuinely think we’re going to be better off out? We can’t organise this, we can’t build a railway, we can’t build an airport, cross rail is well over budget and delayed, anything major we try to do hits issues....

It’s time to review our laws and our political system and make better choices for our future... make Britain Great again.
 
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