The Brexit Thread

[Matt N]

What are the advantages of leaving?

From what I can tell, people who voted Brexit did have numerous reasons that they voted to leave besides the typical stereotypes often said about Brexit voters. For instance:

• Some Brexit voters disagreed with certain EU laws and policies. For instance, I know many farmers voted for Brexit due to disagreement over the EU’s laws surrounding farming. (I think this is where the aforementioned “bendy bananas” saga stems from; from what I can tell, the whole outcry surrounding this was down to farmers wanting to reduce food wastage, and the current EU laws not doing enough for this in their view)
• Some Brexit voters felt that leaving the EU would allow us to trade more freely with the rest of the world without necessarily having to run it by Europe first. For instance, I know lucrative trade deals with the USA, China, Japan and Australia, amongst others, have been cited as benefits of leaving that wouldn’t have happened so easily inside the EU.
• Some Brexit voters did not like the whole democratic structure of the EU and how it works (I seem to remember the phrase “unelected bureaucrats” being thrown around a lot in a derogatory fashion during the Brexit campaign and the following few years).
• Building upon that, I think some Brexit voters also didn’t like the idea of Britain being controlled by an upper body (the EU) and having to pay them money, and I think the argument was fought on sovereignty and being able to forge our own path as an independent nation more easily. For instance, I think many felt that we could pass significant laws more easily outside of the EU and forge our own identity as a nation more easily.

Those are just some of the potential advantages I could think of… I’m not necessarily saying that they’re advantages I personally agree with, but they are things that could feasibly be thought of as advantages.

If I’ve missed anything, Brexit supporters, I apologise; do tell me if I have.

 

[jon81uk]

From what I can tell, people who voted Brexit did have numerous reasons that they voted to leave besides the typical stereotypes often said about Brexit voters. For instance:

• Some Brexit voters disagreed with certain EU laws and policies. For instance, I know many farmers voted for Brexit due to disagreement over the EU’s laws surrounding farming. (I think this is where the aforementioned “bendy bananas” saga stems from; from what I can tell, the whole outcry surrounding this was down to farmers wanting to reduce food wastage, and the current EU laws not doing enough for this in their view)
• Some Brexit voters felt that leaving the EU would allow us to trade more freely with the rest of the world without necessarily having to run it by Europe first. For instance, I know lucrative trade deals with the USA, China, Japan and Australia, amongst others, have been cited as benefits of leaving that wouldn’t have happened so easily inside the EU.
• Some Brexit voters did not like the whole democratic structure of the EU and how it works (I seem to remember the phrase “unelected bureaucrats” being thrown around a lot in a derogatory fashion during the Brexit campaign and the following few years).
• Building upon that, I think some Brexit voters also didn’t like the idea of Britain being controlled by an upper body (the EU) and having to pay them money, and I think the argument was fought on sovereignty and being able to forge our own path as an independent nation more easily. For instance, I think many felt that we could pass significant laws more easily outside of the EU and forge our own identity as a nation more easily.

Those are just some of the potential advantages I could think of… I’m not necessarily saying that they’re advantages I personally agree with, but they are things that could feasibly be thought of as advantages.

If I’ve missed anything, Brexit supporters, I apologise; do tell me if I have.

But several of those statements are “people felt or thought” not clearly defined benefits.
Many people thought the EU put in restrictions but they didn’t exist, or are sensible so have been kept in U.K. law anyway.

 

[Alsty]

I don't feel the need to go over old ground about why people voted to leave as I think that's been done to death. I'd be more interested to know if leave supporters believe the current Brexit situation is as they expected, better than expected or worse than expected.

 

[Matt N]

One potential advantage of Brexit is that we did manage to get a rapid COVID vaccine rollout that we may not have been able to attain had we stayed in the EU; while I know we could technically still have done that had we stayed, I’m not sure whether we would have done.

I feel like the government may have joined the wider EU scheme had we stayed in the bloc.

 

[Alsty]

You're not making sense.

We were still bound to EU rules at the time as we were in the transitional period. The MHRA had the power to override the EMA and grant temporary approvals in an emergency which is what happened (source).

You are suggesting if we had stayed in the EU, this same option wouldn't have been taken even though it still could have been? The options available to the government would've been the same. Whether they choose to exercise them or not is immaterial.

 

[Matt N]

You're not making sense.

We were still bound to EU rules at the time as we were in the transitional period. The MHRA had the power to override the EMA and grant temporary approvals in an emergency which is what happened (source).

You are suggesting if we had stayed in the EU, this same option wouldn't have been taken even though it still could have been? The options available to the government would've been the same. Whether they choose to exercise them or not is immaterial.

Ah, my apologies; I didn't know that... I thought we'd exited fully by the time of the vaccine rollout.

Many Brexit supporters cited the vaccine rollout as a tangible positive of Brexit, anyway, so I guess I was kind of swayed by what they said.

 

[jon81uk]

so I guess I was kind of swayed by what they said.

this sums up the entire issue with the Brexit vote…

 

[Benzin]

I think a lot of Remainers could've been swayed by a sensible plan being put in place to actually deal with Brexit.

As it was, it wasn't. Because Brexit could not in any good faith appeal to all of those who voted for it. The two Leave campaigns promised the world, but as we all know (on both sides), the reality is always harder than the dream.

The almost instantaneous activation of Article 50 killed any thought process into it. Hence why it got delayed so often, because it got kicked off with no actual plan or end goal beyond "Brexit Means Brexit".

Pretty much all of the "positives" that get thrown out were things doable under the EU.

Blue Passports? Could be done.

Tougher Immigration Stance? Could be done.

Turkey joining the EU? Could be prevented if we so wished.


In terms of trading ability as well, why would the UK on it's own be able to get better deals than one big block? I've never really understood that argument, unless it's more to do with "they need us more than we need them".

What also didn't help was the government's sheer bloody mindedness of making the talks as difficult as possible to actually get somewhere. Posturing because we had nothing to bring to the discussions.

Honestly the whole thing has made the country a laughing stock but also untrustworthy across the board. The NI situation especially. Something no one actually gave thought to when it came about.

The sheer arrogance and the way the government conducted themselves during the last 6 years has been nothing short of abhorrent. And we haven't even had time to have the real effects of the situation hit us.

 

[Matt N]

One thing that does sadden me about Brexit is how much it’s divided the country.

Even though the EU probably had quite an inconsequential impact on the lives of many in Britain prior to the referendum on the face of it, it feels like most people developed a very strong opinion on Brexit very quickly, and that caused many rifts.

And I feel like that only worsened after the vote. The years between 2016 and 2020 were pretty intense politically, and a lot of hyperbole and insults were thrown around in both directions. Brexiteers called Remainers “traitors”, “doom-mongerers” and “sore losers” and Remainers called Brexiteers “racists”, “bigots” and “idiots”. Also, people’s voting direction in the referendum caused huge rifts between previously tight-knit groups of people, and I knew of people who quite literally hated each other purely down to the way they voted in the EU referendum. For instance, my Nan & Grandad had some sort of huge row over the EU referendum (Nan voted Remain, while Grandad voted Leave) and didn’t speak to each other for a few days, and I know they are a far cry from the most extreme rift examples I’ve heard of.

Even now, when we’ve been out of the EU for 1 year and in the transition period for 2, people still refer to each other and categorise each other through the arbitrary terms of “Remainer” and “Brexiteer” to an extent. And we’re now approaching 6 years since the referendum.

I don’t know if any of you agree, but I think that rightly or wrongly, Brexit has definitely divided the country in a big way, and in a way that we’re still struggling to recover from. And that does make me sad.

 

[geo4chg]

One potential advantage of Brexit is that we did manage to get a rapid COVID vaccine rollout that we may not have been able to attain had we stayed in the EU; while I know we could technically still have done that had we stayed, I’m not sure whether we would have done.

I feel like the government may have joined the wider EU scheme had we stayed in the bloc.

That this is touted as a benefit of Brexit is factually incorrect, yet you'd be forgiven for thinking it because of the pro-Brexit MPs that use it as a reason why Brexit isn't a disaster. As others have said, the roll out was started before we left the transition period, and it isn't something that we would have been bound to do with the EU anyway. There are numerous reasons why it makes sense for the mainland Europe countries to group together for the rollout (as there are no "borders", France having a great rollout with Italy next door having a lousy one for example would do no one any favours) but as we have a sea border with mainland Europe we don't have these issues naturally through geography.

The thing that really annoys me is that myths about membership to the EU now have become facts in people's minds due to the spin put on it by media and politicians. The example above is one, the inability to close borders in another (we've always had a border control and anyway, during the pandemic Germany has proved closing borders in the EU is possible), being "ruled" by Brussels is another - actually very little of our own legislation was dictated by the EU (else what would be the point of parliament), and that they are "unelected bureaucrats" is another (our very own House of Lords is unelected) and we did elect people to Brussels on our behalf for their equivalent of the House of Commons, it's just that half the people we sent were members of UKIP and didn't bother to take their seats in EU parliament.

In the end, pro-Brexit campaigners (and the Conservatives/UKIP in general) tied pretty much everything that is bad in life to being a member of the EU, while actually the EU influenced people's day-to-day lives very little. And sadly, poorer communities in Wales, the North-East etc that were far more likely to vote for Brexit are the exact communities that have the biggest impact (in the provision of funding for projects) from us leaving. It is an issue that is not going to go away over night and will hang over this country for an entire generation or longer.

 

[jon81uk]

we did elect people to Brussels on our behalf for their equivalent of the House of Commons, it's just that half the people we sent were members of UKIP and didn't bother to take their seats in EU parliament.

This I think is one of the biggest reasons we got into the Brexit mess. If people actually voted for MEPs who wanted to be there and were involved in the politics things could have been different. But people voted for people to become MEPs who didn't actually want to be there so were being paid to do nothing.
Nigel Farage was on the fisheries committee, but didn't turn up most of the time and then complains no one was looking out for British fishermen, despite himself being one of the people being paid to look after the interests of British fishermen.

 

[Matt N]

The other thing I find interesting about Brexit is that even though a lot of Leave voters clearly exist, as Leave won the referendum, I feel like I know surprisingly few Leave voters; off the top of my head, only my grandad voted to Leave, with the rest of my immediate family going Remain.

Grandad would always explain his decision to vote Leave to us by using the analogy of Britain being like a box, and immigrants from abroad being like things being put into the box. He said that we were getting to the point where the box was too full and stuff was beginning to fall out of it. My Nan and the rest of my family voted Remain and rather openly disagreed with this view, and even my Grandad was rather disillusioned with the events in the days following the referendum, but he has said that he would have quite happily voted Leave again in a second referendum.

In fairness, my family generally seems quite liberal when it comes to political views, and we don’t have any strong party alliance or anything, but I found it interesting how few people I know voted Leave. Even in my extended family, I can only think of one other person who likely voted Leave (they never expressly said they were voting Leave, but they shared a lot of anti-EU and anti-foreigner propaganda on Facebook, as well as things hailing the likes of Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson as being heroes, so while I usually shy away from assumptions, I think that was enough for me to make the inference that they probably voted Leave).

 

[Bert2theSpark]

In fairness, my family generally seems quite liberal when it comes to political views, and we don’t have any strong party alliance or anything, but I found it interesting how few people I know voted Leave. Even in my extended family, I can only think of one other person who likely voted Leave (they never expressly said they were voting Leave, but they shared a lot of anti-EU and anti-foreigner propaganda on Facebook, as well as things hailing the likes of Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson as being heroes, so while I usually shy away from assumptions, I think that was enough for me to make the inference that they probably voted Leave).

There's a lot less people who fit the stereotype of Brexiteer than at first glance, I also have family that were along the Leave/Remain divide, and those who voted Leave, whilst they would a appear the architype of Brexiteer at first glance, there views are a lot more nuanced, I've got family who don't like the government, don't like the BBC, don't like Thatcher/Blair/Cameron, don't like the EU, don't like Bezzos/Gates/Musk, don't like Murdoch's empire, don't like the Church of England, don't like all the civil servants in government. Britain's membership in the EU was one of many things to them, and many of these things became prevalent as the UK embraced globalisation and British industry was absolutely decimated.

Not everyone is a heartless monster that blindly supports Farage/Johnson, these are people who grew up in a different environment, the younger generations need to understand their perspective better rather than strawmanning people in their own family. Liberal Democrats/Labour Party are discovering that now and are more able to appeal to both younger generations as well as older generations, without necessarily alienating either side politically. The Conservatives are ones to benefit the most from division.

 

[Matt.GC]

The other thing I find interesting about Brexit is that even though a lot of Leave voters clearly exist, as Leave won the referendum, I feel like I know surprisingly few Leave voters; off the top of my head, only my grandad voted to Leave, with the rest of my immediate family going Remain.

Grandad would always explain his decision to vote Leave to us by using the analogy of Britain being like a box, and immigrants from abroad being like things being put into the box. He said that we were getting to the point where the box was too full and stuff was beginning to fall out of it. My Nan and the rest of my family voted Remain and rather openly disagreed with this view, and even my Grandad was rather disillusioned with the events in the days following the referendum, but he has said that he would have quite happily voted Leave again in a second referendum.

In fairness, my family generally seems quite liberal when it comes to political views, and we don’t have any strong party alliance or anything, but I found it interesting how few people I know voted Leave. Even in my extended family, I can only think of one other person who likely voted Leave (they never expressly said they were voting Leave, but they shared a lot of anti-EU and anti-foreigner propaganda on Facebook, as well as things hailing the likes of Nigel Farage and Tommy Robinson as being heroes, so while I usually shy away from assumptions, I think that was enough for me to make the inference that they probably voted Leave).

I know many more people who voted to Leave than Remain. In fact, it's quite hard for me to find people who voted Remain. But I think the stuff you are alluding to, especially your grandads incredibly flawed and, frankly rediculous box analogy (please don't take offence to that as I'm sure he's a good guy and I do not know him) symbolises how farcical the whole debate was.

I've stated before that 2016 was all about red telephone boxes, misguided nationalism, bendy bananas and fear mongering about foreigners. It was completely hijacked by the Right and this suited the majority of both right and left leaning politicians. It stopped us having any kind of rational debate and lead to where we are now - decisions that I believe are driven by emotion rather rational thought.

Time was when being Eurosceptic was also a very left wing position. Many trade unions where against joining the EEC, Tony Benn always campaigned against it. George Galloway even shared a platform with Nigel Farage on the issue. Jeremy Corbyn himself was always anti EU, he just sold out to shore up his support from Momentum. Before they turned into a crazy imploding organisation, I was a member of the Labour Party for many years and there were tonnes of Eurosceptics at grass roots level, not just local members in working men's clubs but elected councillors too.

 

[jon81uk]

Yes I think Farage took Euro-sceptic and turned it into foreigner-hating to increase his base of followers.

 

[JAperson]

The divide of the country is the biggest issue for me. We can't have sensible debate as easily as before. Unfortunately lots of referendums seem to do that. It seems to be similar with the Scottish referendum vote. People are now calling for another vote presumably so they can keep trying until they get the answer they want.

 

[Matt N]

I wasn’t meaning to say that there’s an archetype of “Brexit voter” by any stretch, in fact I was trying to suggest the exact opposite. Not every Eurosceptic ticks the same boxes trait-wise, and not every Leave voter voted Leave for the same reasons.

For instance, as much as I know the stereotype of “Brexiteer” is commonly bandied about as a brush to tarnish everyone who voted Leave with, my grandad doesn’t actually have any of the traits this stereotype would have you expect. He’s not racist or prejudiced in the slightest, and he absolutely despises the likes of Farage and Johnson; in fact, him and Mark Harper (our local Tory MP) actually had a bit of a doorstep row in the run up to the 2019 election when Harper was canvassing in our area, which ended with my grandad unashamedly declaring to him “I’m not voting Conservative while that lying [gift] Boris is still in number 10!” ([gift] is a replacement for a… different word that sounds very similar). From what my Nan told me about it, I think it’s safe to say that Mark Harper probably regretted knocking on my grandparents’ door…

In fairness, he also despised Corbyn with a passion, so I’m not actually sure where his vote went in 2019… but my point is, my grandad isn’t what you’d call a stereotypical “Brexiteer” as the media sometimes implies Leave voters are, and I don’t think every Leave voter fell into the boxes that many sometimes think they did. My grandad merely voted Leave because he had concerns about the level of immigration we had when inside the EU and our country’s resources being unable to cope with it.

Also, from having talked to my mum about this, I actually know a lot more Brexit voters than I thought I did. As it turns out, much of my extended family voted to Leave, including everyone over the age of about 70. I guess that does make sense, as the Forest of Dean was a fairly strong Brexit-backing constituency, and our local MP Mark Harper is perhaps one of the most ardent Brexiteers in parliament, having voted for a hard Australia-style Brexit numerous times. On a side note, he’s also presently head of the COVID Recovery Group, the cabinet consortium campaigning against strict COVID restrictions.

 

[AstroDan]

The biggest tragedy is that an internal debate within the Conservative Party was made into a huge issue for us all.

I genuinely don't think leaving the EU was in many people's mindsets until Cameron made it so.

Then, because of equality, Leave get loads of airtime and Bob's Your Uncle.

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[Matt N]

Interestingly, it appears that Brexit is even still being used as a weapon in debates in Parliament, as Boris Johnson today used Keir Starmer’s voting record in the key Brexit votes against him, and accused him of “ignoring the people”.

I wonder when Brexit will stop being so divisive and just become part of our everyday lives?

 

[AstroDan]

Interestingly, it appears that Brexit is even still being used as a weapon in debates in Parliament, as Boris Johnson today used Keir Starmer’s voting record in the key Brexit votes against him, and accused him of “ignoring the people”.

I wonder when Brexit will stop being so divisive and just become part of our everyday lives?

It won't for a while - if ever.

Viewpoints are entrenched.

If, in a decade, life in Britain isn't better than life in France, Germany's etc. - I can see another referendum.

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