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The Brexit Thread
- Thread starter Matt N
- Start date
Rob
TS Team
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Any talk of either softening up on Brexit or admitting that maybe, just maybe, it was a mistake, and you get headlines such as these from the usual suspects:
No doubt the people that write these headlines have also written headlines about the dire state of our economy. But we all know that the state of the economy has absolutely nothing at all to do with Brexit. Nope, nothing to see there.
No doubt the people that write these headlines have also written headlines about the dire state of our economy. But we all know that the state of the economy has absolutely nothing at all to do with Brexit. Nope, nothing to see there.
Matt N
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Rishi Sunak has now said that he will not stand for any Brexit agreement that relies upon us abiding by any EU laws: https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en..._637b5bf9e4b0f04daf55032c?ncid=APPLENEWS00001
That rules out a Swiss-style arrangement, then.
That rules out a Swiss-style arrangement, then.
Matt N
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I’ve heard it said that this may also suggest a disconnect between Rishi Sunak and Jeremy Hunt on the desired Brexit policy, which doesn’t bode well.
Hunt was apparently quite a keen advocate for a Swiss-style deal, but Sunak’s vehement rejection of the idea puts a stop to that completely.
Could the fact that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer don’t agree on such a pivotal economic policy cause issues?
Hunt was apparently quite a keen advocate for a Swiss-style deal, but Sunak’s vehement rejection of the idea puts a stop to that completely.
Could the fact that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer don’t agree on such a pivotal economic policy cause issues?
Alsty
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It extends to more than just these two individuals. The Conservative party is stuck in a trap that it has created for itself.
On one hand the way to improve the economy (particularly relevant with the talk of recession, low growth, having to raise taxes etc) is by removing trade barriers with our closest neighbours. However this contrasts with the part of the party that wants to distance ourselves from the EU for ideological reasons. These two viewpoints are polar opposites and cannot be reconciled.
It seems like the ERG are all powerful and have the casting vote over policy for some reason. I don't see much progress until the next General Election when hopefully some time out of power will allow the Conservatives to decide what they actually represent.
Matt.GC
TS Member
This was always to do with the ERG within the conservative party using the cloak of nostalgia and keeping foreigners out of the country as a vehicle to wield their power. No serious debate about Brexit has been had in years.
Truth is, this is all about freedom of movement. Apart from blue passports and "freedom" to return to the absurd Imperial measurement system, we already have most EU laws signed into statute in this country. Over 6 years of searching for the "benefits" of Brexit and tonnes of extra bureaucracy, trade frictions, a non functioning government in Northern Ireland, queues at borders, passport colour changes and a return to ancient ways of measuring things is the best the government can come up with. If freedom of movement can be overcome, there's very little beyond that in the way. We still to this day align many of our standards and laws with that of the EU, the irony being that the UK spearheaded many of them in the first place (many Fire Safety laws for example across the EU came from UK law).
That's a big if though. Because we all knew this was always about foreigners and misplaced nostalgia.
Truth is, this is all about freedom of movement. Apart from blue passports and "freedom" to return to the absurd Imperial measurement system, we already have most EU laws signed into statute in this country. Over 6 years of searching for the "benefits" of Brexit and tonnes of extra bureaucracy, trade frictions, a non functioning government in Northern Ireland, queues at borders, passport colour changes and a return to ancient ways of measuring things is the best the government can come up with. If freedom of movement can be overcome, there's very little beyond that in the way. We still to this day align many of our standards and laws with that of the EU, the irony being that the UK spearheaded many of them in the first place (many Fire Safety laws for example across the EU came from UK law).
That's a big if though. Because we all knew this was always about foreigners and misplaced nostalgia.
Matt N
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I’ll digress that immigration was seemingly a big reason for Brexit winning support among many of those who voted Leave. At very least, I know quite a few Brexit voters who voted the way they did due to immigration concerns.
My grandad voted Leave, and he always told me that Brexit was the right move because “the UK is like a box, and freedom of movement is like somebody shoving stuff into the box incessantly until it won’t fit”. He has said that he would vote Leave again if another referendum was held.
My mum’s brother voted Leave, and I once heard him complaining about “all those foreigners coming in on their boats”…
I can tell that a distant relative of mine almost definitely voted Leave simply by some of the things they shared on Facebook. They shared a lot about foreigners, the need to get foreigners out, and basically a lot along the lines of “all those foreigners coming in, taking our jobs” and such. They also shared staunch admiration for the likes of Nigel Farage.
My grandad voted Leave, and he always told me that Brexit was the right move because “the UK is like a box, and freedom of movement is like somebody shoving stuff into the box incessantly until it won’t fit”. He has said that he would vote Leave again if another referendum was held.
My mum’s brother voted Leave, and I once heard him complaining about “all those foreigners coming in on their boats”…
I can tell that a distant relative of mine almost definitely voted Leave simply by some of the things they shared on Facebook. They shared a lot about foreigners, the need to get foreigners out, and basically a lot along the lines of “all those foreigners coming in, taking our jobs” and such. They also shared staunch admiration for the likes of Nigel Farage.
Dave
TS Founding Member
And yet ironically as part of the EU we could send illegal migrants back to France under the Dublin agreement and now we can’t.
Racists really shot themselves in the foot with brexit didn’t they?
Benzin
TS Member
From: https://twitter.com/Falo12147944/status/1594610048831213569
Sums it up somewhat. A lot of people were convinced (or duped) into this that and the other. Then the end goal was completely removed from what we got.
People were played by those elites they made them despise.
And nothing to do with EU rules regarding tax being planned in. Oh no, best for the country and all that.
Tom
TS Member
Interesting that Labour (i.e., Starmer) made a semi-anti-immigration statement today (or yesterday). Will be interesting to see how many people on the Remain/Rejoin side that alienates.
Even if it was just (sound) political tactics, it was a valid point that our "growth" i.e., meaningless GDP figures has been fuelled by years of wage and salary erosion caused by the unlimited taps of cheaper labour markets. It remains to be seen if anyone is seriously likely to change that - and not simply replace EU labour with that from other countries as part of weak negotiation of trade deals.
Even if it was just (sound) political tactics, it was a valid point that our "growth" i.e., meaningless GDP figures has been fuelled by years of wage and salary erosion caused by the unlimited taps of cheaper labour markets. It remains to be seen if anyone is seriously likely to change that - and not simply replace EU labour with that from other countries as part of weak negotiation of trade deals.
Tom
TS Member
In reality there was probably only ever Farage that would have ever reduced immigrations numbers.
The government were campaigning against Brexit and had no plan for it.
The people that were promising border control weren't in government.
The ones that later went on to be in government lied and set up easier visas for other countries to fill the cheap labour gap left by the end of EU freedom of movement.
Ironically the Labour Party should be well placed to restrict it as they aren't held to ransom by private companies that want cheap labour in the same way the Conservative Party is, but whether - despite his hint at the contrary - Starmer would seriously push that remains to be seen.
The government were campaigning against Brexit and had no plan for it.
The people that were promising border control weren't in government.
The ones that later went on to be in government lied and set up easier visas for other countries to fill the cheap labour gap left by the end of EU freedom of movement.
Ironically the Labour Party should be well placed to restrict it as they aren't held to ransom by private companies that want cheap labour in the same way the Conservative Party is, but whether - despite his hint at the contrary - Starmer would seriously push that remains to be seen.
Rick
TS Member
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I'm ok with that. We need immigration.
I assume supporters of Brexit (I think there a few left ...) will make two points on this front - both of which I think are correct.
Firstly, there are some extenuating circumstances that probably won't see this being the norm.
Secondly, we have been in control of the border and our government has opted to allow that number of people in. It's a demonstration that reducing immigration as a political message is pretty powerful, but the practicalities of it are far different.
Anecdotally, an Indian guy who works from me was telling me he can't believe the number of family, friends and family of friends are coming to the UK. At least two have been granted work visas to take employment as restaurant managers, quite bizarre.
I strongly believe that the perfect storm of Covid, Brexit and the war in Ukraine is why we are having difficulties at the moment, as are other EU countries. Growth in Germany forecast to be just as bad as us, and if I recall they were the 2nd biggest contributors financially to the EU after the UK.
If it were just Brexit, and not covid on top, and not the war on top, I don’t think things would be soo bad right now. Energy costs are the main drivers of inflation, not Brexit.
We can moan all we want about it, but there are multiple factors at play here and it’s now a case of getting on with things and getting through this difficult time.
If it were just Brexit, and not covid on top, and not the war on top, I don’t think things would be soo bad right now. Energy costs are the main drivers of inflation, not Brexit.
We can moan all we want about it, but there are multiple factors at play here and it’s now a case of getting on with things and getting through this difficult time.
Alsty
TS Member
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Curious then how the UK is underperforming yet Ireland is showing lots of growth 
Global issues such as the pandemic and the war in Russia are not the reason that the UK is struggling economically.
Had we not done Brexit then it seems unlikely we would need the latest round of austerity.
Global issues such as the pandemic and the war in Russia are not the reason that the UK is struggling economically.
Had we not done Brexit then it seems unlikely we would need the latest round of austerity.