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The Brexit Thread

The fact is if the referendum was legally binding (like the Scottish independence one was) it would've been annulled due to the illegalities that took place during the campaign.

I mean if the leave campaign actually campaigned on an actual deal instead of the 'easiest deal in history' 'Norway+' 'Canada+' 'sunlit uplands.' If the Remain side had shown the current deal as an example of what we could end up with no doubt it would've been shouted down as 'Project Fear.'
 
BarryZola said:
Both sides lied about what would or wouldn't happen, just as all parties lie about what they're going to do when they get in power during a general election. You can't ever vote in these things knowing exactly what you're going to get whatever the result. However, the fact that we're a democracy means that you carry out the wishes of the electorate. You don't get to pick and choose which results you want to implement in these major votes. That's not how democracy works. By all means hold another vote in a decade or so after Brexit has been implemented and we've seen whether it's been a success or not. You don't just get to guess how it's going to work out and then pull the plug because you think it's not going to work as well as the status quo. If the people vote for a change then it should be change. And, we did, for better or for worse.
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....and that's a wrap.
 
IanSR said:
LOl remain lied too, they promised world war 3, economic collapse, housing market collapse, civil unrest... The only people I see fighting in the streets are the progressive left leaning remainers.

And if you think the figure on the bus was a lie then you need to stop listening to the left wing media, it was misleading, but it was not a lie. The figure was our contracted commitment before rebate for being a member of the EU, it was essentially the pre-discount price, saying membership of the EU cost everybody their first born and £1 billion a day, that's a lie.

Yes I agree it was so stupid so put that figure on the side of a bus, it was so easy to verify that it was incorrect and that in reality we actually paid a bit less, but to highlight that as the sole lie told during the campaign and use that as justification for ignoring the result is reaching at best.
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Those weren't lies by the remain party, just a forecast, and just like the weather, a forecast is just a forecast and not a promise.

However the figure on the side of the bus going to the NHS was a factual lie not a forecast.
 
IanSR said:
....and that's a wrap.
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Actually it's not. We live in a parliamentary democracy. Our MPs are representatives of the people, not delegates. It is their duty to act in the interests of their constituents and not to blindly follow what they think. If they feel like the current Withdrawal Bill is going to cause long term damage to their constituents then they should not support it.
 
Oh my, this thread has gotten very heated over the last couple of days!

I know that I'm likely too young to give my opinion on the current situation in politics, so I apologise if I don't really have a right to comment on this topic, but I feel like I have many things I would like to say regarding Brexit and the present political climate. I apologise in advance, this could be quite long.

I must admit, the current Brexit situation really worries me. There's only 10 days until we're legally due to leave the European Union under Article 50, and there doesn't really seem to be much of a solution in sight now that votes on Boris Johnson's deal have been vetoed twice. Admittedly, I think it is now extremely likely that that deadline will be extended, but I'm really not sure what is going to happen next.

Personally, I'm very, very conflicted with regards to how to feel. Before I say anything, let me just clarify; I have never personally supported leaving the EU. I have always personally been in support of Remain, and if I was allowed to vote, I would vote to remain any day of the week. Despite my personal opinion, though, part of me agrees that we should honour the 2016 referendum result and uphold democracy; we had a vote, Leave won and we should act upon that result in some way, shape or form. It's how the British voting system has always worked and I don't see any reason to change that.

However, another part of me is in support of a new vote on Brexit, whether that is in the form of a general election or a second referendum. Even though I was only 13 when the original vote was carried out, I remember the campaigns from both sides very well. In the run up to the vote, words like "no-deal scenario" were not even an afterthought in most people's minds. The whole Brexit campaign was very positive; there was a real sense of a vision, a hope for a more idyllic Britain. All of the talk at the time made the negotiating process sound incredibly easy, and most people (myself included, despite being a Remain supporter who has been somewhat apprehensive about leaving from the start), thought that leaving the EU would be far easier than it has turned out to be. A lot has changed since the country voted to leave in 2016; as the saying goes, a week is a long time in politics, so 3 years and 4 months is practically an eternity by comparison. We now know considerably more as a nation about what Brexit will entail and how it will affect us, so part of me personally thinks that we should have some form of final say on the matter. Many people have changed their minds since the initial vote, and I think that a new vote with new knowledge would be a more accurate representation of how Britain feels about Brexit; as David Davies once said "A democracy is not a true democracy if it cannot change its mind." If the vote goes through and the country still wants to leave, then that's fine. I will accept the outcome and happily support any motive to pass the best possible version of Brexit for our country.

As I said above, I am definitely very conflicted with regards to how I feel (despite the fact that my paragraph arguing for a second referendum is considerably longer than my paragraph arguing against!), but one thing is for certain; I am confident that we will eventually find a resolution to the present impasse in Parliament. I think it will be a game of patience, but I think things will work out sooner rather than later. However, I think that we need to be very careful what we do now, because the effects of the things we do now could have consequences lasting years, potentially even decades.
 
rob666 said:
...and that is from the resident optimist!
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As I said above, I think we will see a solution sooner rather than later. Boris Johnson does seem very determined to "get Brexit done" (in his very own words), so I'm confident that we should have a good resolution soon. I'm just very worried, as this is an incredibly important issue that will affect all of us in some way.
 
bluesonichd said:
I think most of us will be dead in a ditch before we see any benefits from Brexit
and I voted leave ! :tearsofjoy:
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Don't be so sure; as much as I don't always agree with his policies and wouldn't vote for him in an election, Boris Johnson seems incredibly determined and does seem to have people's interests at heart, so I'm confident that he will eventually find us a good solution, no matter when that may be.

Patience is the key; it should all work out in the end.
 
rob666 said:
The solution?
Don't think there is one.
If it does come, it will be late, or even later.
There is no easy fix.
There is no quick fix.
There is only obliv...
Sorry, distracted by coasters.
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If there's a reassuring thing about Oblivion, it's that the coaster always comes out at the other side of the tunnel, and I'm sure the Brexit impasse will eventually be the same!
 
bluesonichd said:
I think most of us will be dead in a ditch before we see any benefits from Brexit
and I voted leave ! :tearsofjoy:
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This meme is for you

1RSz6Pp.jpg
 
RoyJess said:
Those weren't lies by the remain party, just a forecast, and just like the weather, a forecast is just a forecast and not a promise.

However the figure on the side of the bus going to the NHS was a factual lie not a forecast.
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LOL yeah keep telling yourself that.

Alsty said:
Actually it's not. We live in a parliamentary democracy. Our MPs are representatives of the people, not delegates. It is their duty to act in the interests of their constituents and not to blindly follow what they think. If they feel like the current Withdrawal Bill is going to cause long term damage to their constituents then they should not support it.
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I meant the comment in that we might as well stop discussing it here since the post summed it up perfectly.

The one thing that really annoys me about the "no deal Brexit" brigade is they don't seem to know how to negotiate, you don't take the one thing you know frightens the shit out of the other side "off the table", you keep it there, front and center shoving it in their face at every opportunity, everybody and his dog knows by now the EU will not let us leave on WTO terms so instead of taking that off the table and tucking it away because it's a nice thing to do, it should be used to our advantage instead.
 
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IanSR said:
The one thing that really annoys me about the "no deal Brexit" brigade is they don't seem to know how to negotiate, you don't take the one thing you know frightens the **** out of the other side "off the table",
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Except threatening to do something that would be incredibly damaging to yourself is not really a negotiating position.

When you stand to lose 50 trade agreements overnight, whereas the EU loses one, means the cards are stacked entirely in their favour. The EU already know it's a bluff, but if the UK government is crazy enough to follow through then they know the UK will be hurt more. The EU won't just compromise at any cost.
 
All the forecasts were due to occur when we actually departed the EU anyway... So since we've not even left yet then we're still game for WW3 (though Trump's more likely to cause that then Brexit)...

And an economic issue was avoided due to the Treasury inputting a fair whack of cash into the economy... Because at least some government officials foresaw something and sorted it before it really affected people...

To say a second referendum would be anti democratic means we might as well never have another General Election or vote on any major issues... Especially considering that the UK had one in regards to the ECC (and then shaped the formation of the EU) many moons ago... I mean this was technically the second referendum we've had, so maybe this one was the anti democratic one?

No deal should've been absolute last resort for this, but because of "Brexit means Brexit" and "Leave means Leave" it became the apparent default position for many... Even if the government's own research pointed towards issues in that solution...

At the end of it the EU haven't been frightened by the prospect of the UK leaving, they've worked a deal out twice within our red lines (and border issues in Ireland) and people are shocked those deals look out for their remaining membership over those leaving?
 
IanSR said:
I meant the comment in that we might as well stop discussing it here since the post summed it up perfectly.
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Perfectly for you, maybe.

It's the first time I've seen or heard anyone try to justify the £350M lie for quite some time now! Why would the pre-rebate figure ever be available to spend on the NHS? It's just ridiculous.
 
Alsty said:
Actually it's not. We live in a parliamentary democracy. Our MPs are representatives of the people, not delegates. It is their duty to act in the interests of their constituents and not to blindly follow what they think. If they feel like the current Withdrawal Bill is going to cause long term damage to their constituents then they should not support it.
Click to expand...

Alsty said:
Except threatening to do something that would be incredibly damaging to yourself is not really a negotiating position.

When you stand to lose 50 trade agreements overnight, whereas the EU loses one, means the cards are stacked entirely in their favour. The EU already know it's a bluff, but if the UK government is crazy enough to follow through then they know the UK will be hurt more. The EU won't just compromise at any cost.
Click to expand...

Now... that's a wrap!
 
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