The Brexit Thread

[Alsty]

Yes, the economical and logistical situation in the UK ... is hardly a bed of roses at present, but how much of that is down to Brexit and how much can be blamed on other factors, such as COVID and the Ukraine war?

You compare our economy with other countries that historically we've had similar economic performance to, such as Germany, Norway or New Zealand.

They have all been affected by the same global issues as us (Covid, global shortages of microchips, the war in Ukraine etc). When you compare the UK against these countries you see the UK has not rebounded since the pandemic*, whereas those other countries have, leaving Brexit as the only explanation. This gives an estimated shortfall of £31bn or 5.2% GDP.


Source: ITV

* except Northern Ireland which has recovered because it still has access to the single market...

 

[GaryH]

It’s difficult to ascertain due to the pandemic which has thrown every global economy into turmoil. Would have been interesting to have had that poll if covid didn’t happen.

 

[Alsty]

@GaryH Covid affected all countries. Other countries comparable to the UK have since recovered but not us. Why?

 

[GaryH]

Not disputing that, but covid had also had Huge impact which would be reflected in the vote.

As the article here mentions, it’s not all down to Brexit

Brexit one year on: the impact on the UK economy

Economists say leaving the EU has had negative consequences, but the precise costs are unknown

www.ft.com

 

[Funcone]

There are lots of ways of measuring an economy. The UK’s economy hadn’t really recovered from the 2008 financial crash when Covid/Brexit started. When the government introduced austerity, they said they’d get rid of the deficit within a few years. That never happened, despite swinging cuts to public services.

There are similarities between the UK and Germany, but Germany’s economy is very different as well. It was affected quite differently by WWII, and then the East/West divide has left a lasting legacy. Whereas the UK is very London-centric, East Berlin was affected by the Soviet era, and West Berlin was cut off from the rest of West Germany and had things airlifted in. Germany’s head offices are much more spread out, and most of them aren’t in Berlin. Munich, Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, Hamburg, Cologne, all have a lot more head offices based there. The German economy has a lot more manufacturing, with a big emphasis on car manufacturing. They have more vocational qualifications and apprenticeships. More medium sized family owned businesses. Germany has more stringent employment laws.

That’s not to say that everything’s bad in the UK, and Germany’s got its problems. They’ve been slow moving to re-newable energy and are heavily dependent on Russian gas. East Germany still lags behind West Germany. But you certainly can’t blame all of the UK’s economic problems on Brexit or Covid. The UK's economy did have some successes including a lot of international students at our universities and a strong film industry. But we've also become reliant on fairly dubious things such as arms deals, tobacco companies and investment banking.

Having said that, most economists agree that Brexit has made the UK poorer.

 

[AstroDan]

Does any sane person actually not believe that Brexit has made the UK economically poorer? I mean it's bleedin' obvious even those folk that have 'had enough of experts'.

That isn't to say that those individuals do not think that being economically poorer is a price worth paying for full sovereignty etc,

 

[JAperson]

Does any sane person actually not believe that Brexit has made the UK economically poorer? I mean it's bleedin' obvious even those folk that have 'had enough of experts'.

That isn't to say that those individuals do not think that being economically poorer is a price worth paying for full sovereignty etc,

The majority of Brexit supporters I know say they always knew there would be echelon,if problems for a while but it was a price worth paying to have Britain for Britain (a phrase that means literally nothing)

 

[rob666]

The majority of Brexit supporters I know say they always knew there would be echelon,if problems for a while but it was a price worth paying to have Britain for Britain (a phrase that means literally nothing)

Echelon???
Britain for Britain???

 

[JAperson]

Echelon???
Britain for Britain???

Not me, but yes that’s what I get from family members and the like who support Brexit.

 

[Matt N]

I think a lot of Brexit voters, rightly or wrongly, felt that sovereignty and independence would be good enough to warrant paying the economic price of Brexit. A lot of the argument in 2016 was fought on issues of sovereignty, from memory, as well as issues like immigration (I know a lot of people voted Leave over immigration concerns; I know my grandad did, for instance).

I'd say that increased economic prosperity wasn't necessarily something that no one voted Brexit on the basis of by any means, but certainly not one of the dominant issues. From memory, it was sovereignty and immigration that swayed a fair proportion of Brexit voters to vote Leave.

As an example; I know of a member of my extended family who while I haven't seen them in years, I can tell based off of their Facebook posts that they are very, very pro-Brexit. They used to rant and rave about it a lot on Facebook. Most of their posts referenced immigration issues and/or a dislike of foreigners (think the sort of "we need to stop all these foreigners coming in and taking our jobs" type thing), and a number of them were either very patriotic, with lots of British flags, "Rule Britannia!" etc, or very critical of how Britain was ruled by a higher power and was lacking sovereignty under the EU. They also posted a lot about how young people are "spoilt snowflakes" who need to be more grateful for Brexit voters "making the right choice for them when they couldn't make it themselves".

While I know not all Brexit voters share those views by any stretch, that person certainly isn't the only Brexit supporter I know of who voted for Brexit on similar grounds.

I also know of a number of people who voted Leave as a protest vote against the government. One of my nan's friends voted Leave because "she didn't get her pension at 60". Another person I know of voted Leave because "they couldn't get an appointment at the doctor's surgery quickly enough".

 

[JAperson]

and a number of them were either very patriotic, with lots of British flags, "Rule Britannia!" etc,

This annoys me, patriotism in this country has been taken by right wing racists and UKIP supporters, I think it should be possible Ptolemy be patriotic while being left wing and anti Brexit. I have actually been looked down upon for saying I am proud to be British, that’s tested sometimes like Brexit. I am not proud of this Tory government, what we decided to do over the EU and loads of other things but I think there is a lot to be said for a bit of patriotism. Nationalism (like the SNP) on the other hand is awful, further to this patriotism should not be used as an excuse for things, like Brexit.

 

[Matt N]

This annoys me, patriotism in this country has been taken by right wing racists and UKIP supporters, I think it should be possible Ptolemy be patriotic while being left wing and anti Brexit. I have actually been looked down upon for saying I am proud to be British, that’s tested sometimes like Brexit. I am not proud of this Tory government, what we decided to do over the EU and loads of other things but I think there is a lot to be said for a bit of patriotism. Nationalism (like the SNP) on the other hand is awful, further to this patriotism should not be used as an excuse for things, like Brexit.

I wasn't trying to imply that patriotic people are automatically anti-foreigner or pro-Brexit by any means, and I apologise if that's what you construed from my post because that wasn't my intent.

I think this relative of mine may well lean towards the right wing of the political spectrum, or at very least has some anti-foreigner beliefs. I've heard members of my closer family describe their beliefs as "bordering on BNP level" in the past.

For clarity, I know plenty of patriotic people who voted Remain. My nan is very patriotic, yet whenever Brexit comes up, she repeatedly criticises the people who voted for it and says that she doesn't know what anyone wanted to gain from it!

If there's one thing that makes me sad about politics, it's how poisonous and vitriolic it all seems to have become. Being left wing or right wing, or voting a certain way, is only a political opinion, and it makes me sad that it's often used as a brush with which to insult people and assume stereotypes about them by the opposing side.

 

[rob666]

This annoys me, patriotism in this country has been taken by right wing racists and UKIP supporters, I think it should be possible Ptolemy be patriotic while being left wing and anti Brexit. I have actually been looked down upon for saying I am proud to be British, that’s tested sometimes like Brexit. I am not proud of this Tory government, what we decided to do over the EU and loads of other things but I think there is a lot to be said for a bit of patriotism. Nationalism (like the SNP) on the other hand is awful, further to this patriotism should not be used as an excuse for things, like Brexit.

Ptolemy?
Who the hell is he?
Echelon?
Are we throwing in random words for effect here?

 

[GaryH]

I think we all knew Brexit would cause disruption for a few years after implementation until things got settled. What we didn’t count on was a pandemic at the same time.

 

[JAperson]

I wasn't trying to imply that patriotic people are automatically anti-foreigner or pro-Brexit by any means, and I apologise if that's what you construed from my post because that wasn't my intent.

I think this relative of mine may well lean towards the right wing of the political spectrum, or at very least has some anti-foreigner beliefs. I've heard members of my closer family describe their beliefs as "bordering on BNP level" in the past.

For clarity, I know plenty of patriotic people who voted Remain. My nan is very patriotic, yet whenever Brexit comes up, she repeatedly criticises the people who voted for it and says that she doesn't know what anyone wanted to gain from it!

If there's one thing that makes me sad about politics, it's how poisonous and vitriolic it all seems to have become. Being left wing or right wing, or voting a certain way, is only a political opinion, and it makes me sad that it's often used as a brush with which to insult people and assume stereotypes about them by the opposing side.

No Matt there is no need to apologise I was not saying you were suggesting these things, just what I’ve heard from people. It’s said how divine our politics have become, it seems not that long ago people could have sensible debate without hating each other this has now eroded.

Ptolemy?
Who the hell is he?
Echelon?
Are we throwing in random words for effect here?

perhap we could focus less on my spelling and gramma an more on what I am actually written. I think reading it back it’s clear what I was saying although I could of course understand momentary confusion. I’ve said multiple times, I struggle with it and it’s something I’m trying to improve, why don’t people just give people a chance to improve themselves?

 

[Rick]

I think it's telling that those defending Brexit typically begin with a "Things haven't got worse" answer than a "Here are all the good things it has brought us".

 

[Dave]

You MUST be trolling me as you know I wasn't saying these things in my post. I actually pretty much said that there are ways of protesting without going to the levels of persistent loud nuisance that this guy was going to. How would you like it if you lived or worked near a building where people were turning up to protest regularly over many months/years and bringing speakers and amps and making a load of loud unpleasant noise whilst you were trying to go about your daily life? You know, had a tough day at work and you want to just want to relax and have a bit of peace and quiet? No luck, people outside with speakers shouting about whatever floats their boat that day. Work nights and need a bit of sleep once in a while? What if I turn up every day with speakers outside your house and shout about how I'm upset that my taxes have gone up even though I worked through the pandemic, because you happen to live near a government building? Think about it honestly. Treat it on a case by case basis. The Brexit protest guy is a k**b and needed dealing with. You must be able to see that. Great trolling though.

I don’t really care as long as it stops these eco groups like extinction rebellion and insulate Britain from bringing the country to a standstill.

It always amazes me how people happily see their rights get eaten away because the government first use the new rules on annoying people. At some point they will start using them against people who you support and at that point it will be too late.

The only way you know you have a right to freedom of speech and freedom of protest is if the people you disagree with also hold those rights.

 

[BarryZola]

It always amazes me how people happily see their rights get eaten away because the government first use the new rules on annoying people. At some point they will start using them against people who you support and at that point it will be too late.

The only way you know you have a right to freedom of speech and freedom of protest is if the people you disagree with also hold those rights.

Why quote me in this when, again, I didn't say what you've accused me of saying? Read my words. You're intelligent enough.

 

[Dave]

To be honest, if you're going to be that much of a nuisance on a regular basis that you're taking massive speakers and amps then I'm glad they've stopped him. You can protest without being an absolute bell-end. I know the angle is that they'll use this to stamp down on whatever they feel like they don't want, but in this case the guy is genuinely just being a nuisance because HE didn't get his own way in the referendum that happened years ago. What would it be like if every citizen who decided that they didn't like something that the government did went out on the streets with speakers and amps and started making loads of noise on a regular basis? It would be an awful country to live in.

You MUST be trolling me as you know I wasn't saying these things in my post. I actually pretty much said that there are ways of protesting without going to the levels of persistent loud nuisance that this guy was going to. How would you like it if you lived or worked near a building where people were turning up to protest regularly over many months/years and bringing speakers and amps and making a load of loud unpleasant noise whilst you were trying to go about your daily life? You know, had a tough day at work and you want to just want to relax and have a bit of peace and quiet? No luck, people outside with speakers shouting about whatever floats their boat that day. Work nights and need a bit of sleep once in a while? What if I turn up every day with speakers outside your house and shout about how I'm upset that my taxes have gone up even though I worked through the pandemic, because you happen to live near a government building? Think about it honestly. Treat it on a case by case basis. The Brexit protest guy is a k**b and needed dealing with. You must be able to see that. Great trolling though.

Why quote me in this when, again, I didn't say what you've accused me of saying? Read my words. You're intelligent enough.

I mean the answer is just to quote your posts though highlighted the key phrase for your convenience.

Protests by their nature have to be annoying, otherwise they are ineffective as those in power can simply ignore it. The law already allowed the police to stop activity that caused serious distress so if he was doing this in a residential area he would already have committed a crime. He is doing it in parliament square. It has no residences and limited work place and the traffic noise is far more invasive but there you go.

 

[rob666]

Sorry, but the attention seeking idiot still has a right to protest, he still has a right to demonstrate on the public highway, he still has his right to free speech.
He has lost his right to amplify.
Sense of proportion required.
He is a noisy attention seeking idiot, a public nuisance.
Take his toys away.
Sorted.