The statement that was put out is an acknowledgement of the situation.
Spreading unproven rumours can land you in serious trouble under the term of "Defamation of Character".
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Theme Park Worldwide
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The statement that was put out is an acknowledgement of the situation.
Spreading unproven rumours can land you in serious trouble under the term of "Defamation of Character".
hannypanda
TS Member
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- Wicker Man
It is not an acknowledgement to the victims at all. What he has released was a cold, scripted statement which did not condemn any sort of abuse or harassment. A lot of the victims were offended by this, and rightly so.
There is plenty of proof of what the individual has done. These may not be criminal offences, but they are inappropriate. He cannot claim defamation of character if there is proof that he has done the things that people are claiming.
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Doublethink
TS Member
I just hope that Shawn doesn't do his Netherlands trip he was talking about doing in the coming days. They still have a voluntary 14 day quarantine for UK visitors as they designate UK high COVID risk- if Shawn breaks this to profit by vlogging Dutch parks will not look good especially with everything else going on currently
hannypanda
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- Wicker Man
There is absolutely zero chance that Shawn will not be going on that trip.
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MattyH
TS Member
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- GIIBBB
The composer of the thread of allegations has now been targeted by anonymous accounts threatning her with arrest for murder if those accused decided to take their own life. These are all accounts set up specifically to target her seemingly for composing the thread of allegations.
hannypanda
TS Member
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She's chosen to take a break from Twitter for it. Truly unacceptable behaviour.
With them mentioning "taking their own life", it would not surprise me if a certain individual had something to do with it. He has threatened suicide previously.
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Rick
TS Member
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I am not sure they could have done anything else given the nature of the allegations. That feels like the bare minimum. Plus, that comes on the back of a real hardcore effort to silence people's questions on all platforms. Only when they couldn't press the delete button quick enough did they issue a meagre 'statement'.
That said, Shawn has something to answer for as well. If I was Shawn, which I am not, I would:
- Address the racism allegation against himself head on - either it's fake or it's real. If fake, make that clear. If it's real, provide some clarity as to whether that is his actual view, or not and be seen to show some regret if it's not. Private conversations shouldn't have to be responded to, but the nature of the world today means you probably shouldn't pretend it's not out there - especially with a young audience.
- Repin the statement - the fact that this thread is still on fire would suggest that would be sensible. Having it buried in his feed looks CBA.
- Rewrite or append it to make it clear that any targeting of the alleged victims is wrong.
- Share details of somewhere those who have complaints can get help - show some compassion.
- Difficult but ... Try and provide some transparency in terms of where the police report has been made. Which constabulary, is each new allegation being put forward or just the first, or the ones he deemed to be the most serious, etc.
The only reason that hasn't happened is because Shawn doesn't have to answer to a broadcaster, but he does have to answer to his direct viewers and I would suggest he is not doing that effectively.
You have to own these situations.
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Alsty
TS Member
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Whoever is behind those accounts is clearly not very bright. What's been said is already out in the public domain and isn't undone by threatening and belittling the victims of abuse. In fact, by posting they're helping to keep the threads trending and increasing their exposure. *slow clap*
Legally he is restricted with what he can publish without prejudiced any potential proceedings or investigation, he is probably advised to remain neutral
Things can only be proved through a court of law with a fair trial on both parties. Spreading rumours outside that, is opening yourself up to litigation.
hannypanda
TS Member
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You seem to be hanging everything on legal procedure, when that is clearly not the case. Not everything needs to go through a court of law to be proven fact.
If the individual wants to challenge the evidence provided through a court of law, then the matter can be debated. Based on the content and amount of evidence this would be a highly foolish thing to attempt, however I would not put anything past anybody at this point.
Also, again you state rumours, these are not rumours. Twenty examples of inappropriate content with plenty of evidence to back these up claims up cannot be classed as rumours. Also, classing any of this as rumours is highly disrespectful to any of the victims who have come forward, as it hints toward doubt.
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Spookle15
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- Big Thunder Mountain
On their website it says that it is strongly advised to self-quarantine. It doesn't say if travelling by plane or car so I have to presume that it doesn't matter how you get there, they'd like you to quarantine.
He hasn't mentioned the dates and places he is going to, but as he said things may very well change. There is no mention on the website if you are visiting for a day, just driving through etc if you are exempt.
Happy to agree that Shawn hasn't handled things that great - my opinion on this has been changing since I was made aware of everything last Friday - but I'm not adding ignorant traveller to his list of mistakes just yet.
He's been very open about doing the right things regarding COVID-19 - yes, he could be lying about this, it seems anything is open to suspicion at the moment regarding the channel - so I'm assuming at the moment he has either got some advice, or is hoping in two weeks time things may have changed. He also seems to be a super organiser of these trips so I think we'll have to wait and see. He mentioned several weeks ago now I think it was, that this trip was coming so who knows if things will have to change or not.
He currently still thinks he needs to be social distancing from Charlotte even though he could become part of her family "bubble" so I'll be very interested to see what happens when they are in a car together. By rights, he should be able to walk alongside her now, so if anything he's overly aware of the regulations.
I will be very interested to hear what he has to say about this trip, if he does get to the Netherlands. I would also expect the first person to call him out on this is a regular commentator from the Netherlands on his facebook page if he does not give the correct information when he starts his vlogging.
- On a complete side note to all of this, and apologies now for going off topic, hence why I've hidden it so people don't need to bother with it.
it's something that has cropped up a few times regarding the fact that Shawn doesn't need to worry so much about filming stuff for the channel because he is 27 and still lives with his parents, if he had a house etc it would be more understandable, needing to pay his own bills etc. He's obviously better off because he doesn't have his own home.
It's still seems to me it's a taboo subject if you're over 22 and still live with your parents. There have been jibes regarding this and Shawn waaay back in terms of pages when all was well with TPWW. I have to say, it bothered me then and it bothers me now. A 27 year old, still living at home. Guffaw. As someone older than Shawn, who still lives at home along with an even older sibling I've generally always been made to feel bad for actually being at home still. I'm not sure why, I think it's the "fly the nest" mentality there seems to be, and has been for a long time. My eldest brother left as soon as he turned 18. Apart from three days in London every year or so, in a B&B, the last time I was on holiday I was 13, 20 years ago. Whereas he has been all around the world, did a world trip and has been on cruises. And that's fine with me, because if I'd left home at 18, or as some people are almost expected to leave as soon as they've opened their 18th birthday presents, I wouldn't have coped at all. It's less "well that's life" and more "everybody is different" and more importantly everybody's families are different.
Maybe it's less Ebeneezer Scrooge and Scrooge McDuck rolled into one (this maybe an exaggeration but sometime ago it felt like this was being seen as a carefully planned life choice to avoid spending money), and he's simply happy being at home and his parents are happy to have him there.
Travelling earns him money, any money he earns from any number of vlogs goes back into travelling with obvious profit. Like any job. I assume he saves any profit he makes that doesn't need to be re-invested in new equipment or the trips. I'm sure financially he and his parents have some arrangement. Do they own their house? Is he paying their mortgage? Do I know? No. Do you?
I understand the current context of why this has cropped up now, however when I first read these comments many weeks ago now there was no such thing as this current situation. To be fair, it's not just on here I've read things, but here is where I am to comment on it.
It's still seems to me it's a taboo subject if you're over 22 and still live with your parents. There have been jibes regarding this and Shawn waaay back in terms of pages when all was well with TPWW. I have to say, it bothered me then and it bothers me now. A 27 year old, still living at home. Guffaw. As someone older than Shawn, who still lives at home along with an even older sibling I've generally always been made to feel bad for actually being at home still. I'm not sure why, I think it's the "fly the nest" mentality there seems to be, and has been for a long time. My eldest brother left as soon as he turned 18. Apart from three days in London every year or so, in a B&B, the last time I was on holiday I was 13, 20 years ago. Whereas he has been all around the world, did a world trip and has been on cruises. And that's fine with me, because if I'd left home at 18, or as some people are almost expected to leave as soon as they've opened their 18th birthday presents, I wouldn't have coped at all. It's less "well that's life" and more "everybody is different" and more importantly everybody's families are different.
Maybe it's less Ebeneezer Scrooge and Scrooge McDuck rolled into one (this maybe an exaggeration but sometime ago it felt like this was being seen as a carefully planned life choice to avoid spending money), and he's simply happy being at home and his parents are happy to have him there.
Travelling earns him money, any money he earns from any number of vlogs goes back into travelling with obvious profit. Like any job. I assume he saves any profit he makes that doesn't need to be re-invested in new equipment or the trips. I'm sure financially he and his parents have some arrangement. Do they own their house? Is he paying their mortgage? Do I know? No. Do you?
I understand the current context of why this has cropped up now, however when I first read these comments many weeks ago now there was no such thing as this current situation. To be fair, it's not just on here I've read things, but here is where I am to comment on it.
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No, he cannot "bubble" with her, unless she lives alone. So he is correct in still socially distancing from her. I agree it'll be interesting to see how he shares a car and hotel rooms with her however...
I've also created an account just to contribute to this topic. A little about me... I'm in my 40, a lifelong coaster enthusiast, member of a few coaster clubs and have some professional experience in some of the areas being discussed about what has been discussed.
I think it's important to state my views on TPP for transparency. I don't watch TPWW, I'm aware of their YouTube channel and I'm aware of Shawn from the days of his old channel. I'm completely oblivious to everyone else who has featured on the channel with the exception of Dean, who has been a coaster enthusiast for well over 20 years. On a personal level, I find the channel a bit cringe for my liking. The content is too long with little creative flair and is a very much chuck out the content as quick a possible. I find other YouTubers far better, such as CoasterBot, who have a much higher production value. I've also never been a fan of content creators who put the individual front and centre, and this is the same way I dislike Theme Park Review. Both TPWW and TPR present a very much lego movie outlook on like "everything is awesome".... "look, you too can be so happy at a theme park"... "look at how happy we are". It's content that nots for me.
Personal view aside, let's get down to business.
YouTube content providers with sizeable fan's need to be extremely careful.
The first time I read about the accusations it screamed to me of a similar YouTube scandal from Alex Day - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Day In short, Alex Day and a series of YouTubers took advantage of their young audience at meet ups, and using direct contact with their audience.
Themepark World Wide - How its run
So the following points are not exclusive for TPWW, I believe that this should be the case for all enthusiast clubs, websites, social media "influencers". However, the following points are aimed at TPWW as per the topic of this thread.
It's very clear that this is still a bedroom operation, living in his mums house. It is clearly very amateurish in how they operate. This has obviously worked well in the past, but there comes huge responsibilities. I'm very much of the view that there should always be a level of transparency with the audience, namely the following:
If you are holding "meet ups" where children (legally anyone under the age of 18) are attending with organisers representing the club or group, or even other adult attendees, then you are leaving yourself open to risk.
I believe TPWW and others host meet ups fairly regularly. So...
It would be so easy for someone running a club / YouTube channel / website to use their benefit of running such a club to gain leverage with people who can be easily misled.
Are parents who allow their children to go Alton Towers aware they are meeting other enthusiasts in organised meet ups?
I'm no longer a member of the European Coaster Club, however, they at least have a constitution which details what benefits the team get from those positions, team profiles clearly listed and trip invites require an adult to be with all children.
Whilst the ECC probably turns over a far greater some of money due to the trips they offer, I'd imagine that TPWW and other Youtube channels are brining in significant sums of money. They shouldn't use the "small channel" argument to suggest they can't bring in policies to protect themselves and their fans and supporters.
The TPWW Statement
In this country, whilst you can report an incident to the police on behalf of someone else, the police won't record a crime until the victim confirms that a crime has taken place.
The TPWW statement is very vague, and I'm sure by design.
No one knows what this contact with the police will be. It could simply be a phone call to a control room, who, upon not being aware of any investigation, suggested they not make any further comments. Or it could be they have actively been engaging with an investigation. No one knows apart from the police and TWPP.
The allegations regarding TPWW and other Coaster Enthusiasts
If an allegation is made, it should be treated very seriously. The victims should be treated with dignity and respect. It is extremely difficult process in reporting any sexual or physical assault to the police. Victims go through a stage of "secondary victimisation" where by the recounting of the facts brings back the trauma of the events. Victims likely have to do this at the time of reporting, when making a statement or being interviewed and then if it goes to court, in an open court case. It's challenging and traumatic.
The fact that an allegation doesn't end up in a charge or a conviction doesn't mean it didn't happen. It simply means the evidence isn't there to bring a realistic chance of a prosecution.
Historical cases often bring about real challenges to investigate. You are often relying on victims accounts and any disclosures to friends and family they have made, and the suspects account, plus any written accounts at the time of the incident. The investigation often misses out on traditional forensics, digital forensics (phones, computers), CCTV, precise movements of individuals, witnesses at scenes
The Parks need to take action
Alton Towers and the rest of the parks across the UK need to seriously consider how they engage with social media influencers. They are allowing content creators go onto the park to gain the benefit from the viewers and influence they have over. At the same time, they allow content creators to earn a living whilst using their parks and facilities whilst potentially brining large groups of people together in an organised fashion which doesn't have the relevant security and safety provisions. This could be a PR nightmare for Alton Towers.
It's a very simple fix. Only allow organised events at the park that meet strict policies and procedures as outline by the park.
I think it's important to state my views on TPP for transparency. I don't watch TPWW, I'm aware of their YouTube channel and I'm aware of Shawn from the days of his old channel. I'm completely oblivious to everyone else who has featured on the channel with the exception of Dean, who has been a coaster enthusiast for well over 20 years. On a personal level, I find the channel a bit cringe for my liking. The content is too long with little creative flair and is a very much chuck out the content as quick a possible. I find other YouTubers far better, such as CoasterBot, who have a much higher production value. I've also never been a fan of content creators who put the individual front and centre, and this is the same way I dislike Theme Park Review. Both TPWW and TPR present a very much lego movie outlook on like "everything is awesome".... "look, you too can be so happy at a theme park"... "look at how happy we are". It's content that nots for me.
Personal view aside, let's get down to business.
YouTube content providers with sizeable fan's need to be extremely careful.
The first time I read about the accusations it screamed to me of a similar YouTube scandal from Alex Day - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Day In short, Alex Day and a series of YouTubers took advantage of their young audience at meet ups, and using direct contact with their audience.
Themepark World Wide - How its run
So the following points are not exclusive for TPWW, I believe that this should be the case for all enthusiast clubs, websites, social media "influencers". However, the following points are aimed at TPWW as per the topic of this thread.
It's very clear that this is still a bedroom operation, living in his mums house. It is clearly very amateurish in how they operate. This has obviously worked well in the past, but there comes huge responsibilities. I'm very much of the view that there should always be a level of transparency with the audience, namely the following:
- Are they a "business" or not (I don't think you can call yourself a community if your main aim is making money)
- Who are on the pay-roll or obtain benefits from TPWW
- Who is a volunteer at TPWW
- What policies do they have with their staff / volunteers
- Do they have a social media policy for their staff / volunteers?
- Are they DBS checked?
If you are holding "meet ups" where children (legally anyone under the age of 18) are attending with organisers representing the club or group, or even other adult attendees, then you are leaving yourself open to risk.
I believe TPWW and others host meet ups fairly regularly. So...
- Is there parental consent given for minors to attend these and are they with an adult?
- Is there a contact for the organisers should something go wrong?
- Is it clear who is running the event and their contact details?
- Is there a photography / social media policy?
It would be so easy for someone running a club / YouTube channel / website to use their benefit of running such a club to gain leverage with people who can be easily misled.
Are parents who allow their children to go Alton Towers aware they are meeting other enthusiasts in organised meet ups?
I'm no longer a member of the European Coaster Club, however, they at least have a constitution which details what benefits the team get from those positions, team profiles clearly listed and trip invites require an adult to be with all children.
Whilst the ECC probably turns over a far greater some of money due to the trips they offer, I'd imagine that TPWW and other Youtube channels are brining in significant sums of money. They shouldn't use the "small channel" argument to suggest they can't bring in policies to protect themselves and their fans and supporters.
The TPWW Statement
In this country, whilst you can report an incident to the police on behalf of someone else, the police won't record a crime until the victim confirms that a crime has taken place.
The TPWW statement is very vague, and I'm sure by design.
No one knows what this contact with the police will be. It could simply be a phone call to a control room, who, upon not being aware of any investigation, suggested they not make any further comments. Or it could be they have actively been engaging with an investigation. No one knows apart from the police and TWPP.
The allegations regarding TPWW and other Coaster Enthusiasts
If an allegation is made, it should be treated very seriously. The victims should be treated with dignity and respect. It is extremely difficult process in reporting any sexual or physical assault to the police. Victims go through a stage of "secondary victimisation" where by the recounting of the facts brings back the trauma of the events. Victims likely have to do this at the time of reporting, when making a statement or being interviewed and then if it goes to court, in an open court case. It's challenging and traumatic.
The fact that an allegation doesn't end up in a charge or a conviction doesn't mean it didn't happen. It simply means the evidence isn't there to bring a realistic chance of a prosecution.
Historical cases often bring about real challenges to investigate. You are often relying on victims accounts and any disclosures to friends and family they have made, and the suspects account, plus any written accounts at the time of the incident. The investigation often misses out on traditional forensics, digital forensics (phones, computers), CCTV, precise movements of individuals, witnesses at scenes
The Parks need to take action
Alton Towers and the rest of the parks across the UK need to seriously consider how they engage with social media influencers. They are allowing content creators go onto the park to gain the benefit from the viewers and influence they have over. At the same time, they allow content creators to earn a living whilst using their parks and facilities whilst potentially brining large groups of people together in an organised fashion which doesn't have the relevant security and safety provisions. This could be a PR nightmare for Alton Towers.
It's a very simple fix. Only allow organised events at the park that meet strict policies and procedures as outline by the park.
hannypanda
TS Member
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- Wicker Man
Tim
TS Member
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- Air / Blue Fire
@Spookle15 I really wanted to reply to your spoilers post but I didn't want to detract from the rest of the discussion so it's also in spoilers:
As you were.
I'm 29 and half the people I know still live at home with their parents. There should be no shame in it, they all have very good reasons and nearly none of them fit the old stereotype. It's normally for financial reasons as housing prices around where I grew up are ridiculously over priced. Two of my friends are married and have kids but they still live in the house the husband grew up in with his parents. You could say they are following the even older stereotype of having 3 generations under 1 roof which only stopped being a common thing about 50 years ago.
The irony is that of the group I was the one that when we were growing up people joked that I'd still be living at home. However the reality has been quite the opposite. I left for Uni at 18, moved out for work at 21, lived with my girlfriend's family for years to make life more affordable and only in the last few years did we managed to get our own house.
From my experience you normally end up living where you do purely because it's where you need to be.
Although I don't think people have been unfair pointing out he lives at home to save money. All they are trying to say is that if TPWW went quite for a few weeks he wouldn't lose his house over it because he's not the sole/main provider.
The irony is that of the group I was the one that when we were growing up people joked that I'd still be living at home. However the reality has been quite the opposite. I left for Uni at 18, moved out for work at 21, lived with my girlfriend's family for years to make life more affordable and only in the last few years did we managed to get our own house.
From my experience you normally end up living where you do purely because it's where you need to be.
Although I don't think people have been unfair pointing out he lives at home to save money. All they are trying to say is that if TPWW went quite for a few weeks he wouldn't lose his house over it because he's not the sole/main provider.
As you were.
SuperMuscleMan
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Colossus
Addressing the 'Its a business issue' TP
Thank you for a great post. I too think the parks should have a policy in place as currently they do have a policy that can exclude Vloggers but it's not used by Merlin parks.
What is also interesting is that I have raised the subject at 2 Disney parks this week and both have turned around and said vlogging does not constitute as a commercial activity. However have said that "due to the sensitive nature of this subject and the allegations, we have shared your message with the appropriate Leadership teams. We will now handle this issue internally."
Although it's not perfect I am pleased 2 Disney parks took the time to respond to me. Its not a perfect answer but it's great that they have acknowledged the seriousness of the issue on round one of communication.
Thank you for a great post. I too think the parks should have a policy in place as currently they do have a policy that can exclude Vloggers but it's not used by Merlin parks.
What is also interesting is that I have raised the subject at 2 Disney parks this week and both have turned around and said vlogging does not constitute as a commercial activity. However have said that "due to the sensitive nature of this subject and the allegations, we have shared your message with the appropriate Leadership teams. We will now handle this issue internally."
Although it's not perfect I am pleased 2 Disney parks took the time to respond to me. Its not a perfect answer but it's great that they have acknowledged the seriousness of the issue on round one of communication.
pluk
TS Member
No. You don't presume the victim is right, that wording puts a greater weight on the evidence and account of the victim than the suspect. That is obviously wrong.
You believe the account of the victim.
You believe the account of the suspect.
You remain impartial in the absence of other supporting evidence which proves or disproves the account of either party.
The volume of reports may influence your judgement, but all the evidence here is utterly untested.
To presume the victim is right gives far too much power to one person in the event of false or misconstrued accusations. It's not a fair way about going about anything.
I know it's a hugely emotive subject, but you must maintain some level of open mindedness and fairness. That is hugely lacking in a lot of the conversation here.
Yet you seem to be upset that Shaun is not following a rule book of your writing?
**Apologies if the conversation has moved on, I wrote this past night and just noticed it didn't post**
hannypanda
TS Member
- Favourite Ride
- Wicker Man
Apologies for my wording, you don't believe the victim is RIGHT, you believe they are telling the truth.
The victims have submitted plenty of evidence of their experiences. I am not talking about written accounts of what has happened, I'm talking screenshots of conversations, photographs and videos. You may say this is "untested", but as previously stated some people are putting way too much emphasis on legal procedure. Like many, I believe what I see with my own eyes, and I do not believe any of the victims were lying.
As a young girl myself, I know this sort of stuff goes on. I've seen it from the Theme Park community, as well as other communities. If you have any doubt of that please read the account of @Panda who backs up why those have little hope of a conviction, even with evidence. These accounts do not surprise me in the slightest, that is why I choose to believe what I do, and this is why I am so emotional when I comes to this subject. Maybe if you'd seen and heard what I have over the last few years you may be more inclined to be less "open minded".
With regard to the "rule book" comment, this was in reference to people comparing Shawn to a business. I have never once gave a detailed account of what Shawn should/shouldn't have done from the off here, however I have stated that I disagree with his actions, and suggested how he could have acted better. Many others agree with me. You know I have not written my own rule book, so you can keep your snarky comments to yourself.
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