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Thorpe and Towers coasters- Have Thorpe reached a level that Towers can't equal?

E

Ethan

TS Member
It's no secret that the height restriction has been a burden to Towers and makes competing with Thorpe an already uphill battle. With that said, over the years Towers have come up with many innovative and special rides that have allowed them to keep up with Thorpe. We have now come to the stage where Thorpe have upped their game and have reached a level whereby it is very difficult for Towers to compete. Hyperia uses its height to its advantage, by introducing unique and crazy elements that we haven't seen in the UK before. Whilst Towers have proved that height isn't necessarily needed to make a good ride, it is a factor that provides more possibilities with a layout and can make it easier to provide a good experience. With the height restriction forever imposed on Towers, have we reached the point where they can't compete with Thorpe anymore because of the introduction of Hyperia
 
Alton Towers and Thorpe Park are not competing.

they have been owned by the same company for 25 years so they are deliberately designing parks to complement each other and offer different experiences at each one. Alton Towers doesn't need the highest coaster and I don't think have any intention of ever going for that sort of record.
 
As @jon81uk said, I don’t think Alton Towers and Thorpe Park have ever been “competing”. The two parks complement each other within Merlin rather than compete, and even then, Alton Towers is far enough from Thorpe Park that I don’t think they need to staunchly complement each other in the same vein as Thorpe Park needs to complement Chessington and Legoland.

I also think that Alton Towers have proven many times that you don’t need height if you think far enough outside the box. Height is undeniably helpful, and I don’t deny that a big, tall coaster can be brilliant and open up many layout opportunities, but rides like Nemesis, Oblivion and The Smiler arguably prove that height isn’t necessarily essential.
 
Matt N said:
As @jon81uk said, I don’t think Alton Towers and Thorpe Park have ever been “competing”. The two parks complement each other within Merlin rather than compete, and even then, Alton Towers is far enough from Thorpe Park that I don’t think they need to staunchly complement each other in the same vein as Thorpe Park needs to complement Chessington and Legoland
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They may not be directly competing, but we've got to consider that thrill seekers may not see the need to go to Towers anymore if Thorpe provide the better thrills in Hyperia. Let's say you live the same distance from both parks, families will undoubtedly go to Towers but for thrill seekers the choice may have changed now with the introduction of Hyperia. I'm sure Towers will be fine if plenty of families visit, but surely thrill seekers are a high percentage of their visitors
 
Alton Towers and Thorpe Park have such different catchment areas that I doubt there is any significant impact on one when the other gets a major new attraction.

Thorpe Park is primarily attracting guests from the Greater London area and the south. Alton Towers is primarily attracting guests from the midlands and north. There will of course be some people who live along the M40 corridor whereby both parks are similar distance away, but in the grand scheme of things this is not significant. Alton Towers are far more likely to be impacted by what Drayton Manor or Blackpool Pleasure Beach do, but neither of these parks have threatened to have any impact in recent years.

And anyway, height is not everything when it comes to a coaster. Nemesis being the prime example. But if you want to look at more recent examples, Voltron is not massively high but still manages to pack in lots of unique and newer elements. You do not need height alone to allow for these newer and sometimes crazier elements on coasters.
 
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Since Colossus, the place of Thorpe within the Tussauds group was to be their "thrill" park. Chessington is for small families, Alton Towers is an all rounder.

The parent company decides which park is getting which coaster at corporate level, not at park level. There is no competition, it's wherever Merlin decide to send each ride, or the direction they want for the park.

Ethan said:
With the height restriction forever imposed on Towers, have we reached the point where they can't compete with Thorpe anymore because of the introduction of Hyperia
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No. Otherwise Alton wouldn't have been able to compete with the likes of Blackpool in 1994.

One coaster, which no one has actually yet ridden, does not a park maketh.
Ethan said:
I'm sure Towers will be fine if plenty of families visit, but surely thrill seekers are a high percentage of their visitors
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Alton Towers is a full day out with something for everyone. Thrill seekers will still go because of the existing lineup, that's not going anywhere. Hyperia will be great, I'm sure, and certainly exciting for Thorpe, but you're getting rather carried away here.
 
GooseOnTheLoose said:
Alton Towers is a full day out with something for everyone. Thrill seekers will still go because of the existing lineup, that's not going anywhere. Hyperia will be great, I'm sure, and certainly exciting for Thorpe, but you're getting rather carried away hehere
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You're right maybe I'm overestimating Hyperia. It does look well beyond the level of anything I've seen in this country before but maybe it won't be as good as I think it'll be
 
Thinking of the height restriction as a burden is just the wrong way of thinking about it, it’s resulted in a line up of unique and interesting rides which you genuinely can’t find elsewhere. Hyperia looks fab, but what has Thorpe‘s lack of restrictions gotten it so far? Two off-the-shelf Intamins, a pretty bog standard Invert, a short wing coaster and Saw - The Ride.

Give me Towers line up any day of the week.
 
Depends what the premise of the question really is. As has been mentioned, there is no rational basis to "compete" with Thorpe, and I would argue that the micro environment that is the UK industry as a whole does not really lend itself to the concept of traditional market competitive forces that much. Of course this is highly debatable, but looking at geographical and demographical factors, I would argue they are competing first and foremost with other kinds of leisure activities within the country, and secondarily competing with foreign trips outside of it.

So personally, I would say this is more about market positioning to actually avoid direct competition, even extending to parks outside of the Merlin estate. The slice of the pie is the dwindling amount of disposable income people have to spend on leisure activities, so a park like Alton Towers needs to have a compelling enough offer to convince you to visit them as opposed to spending your money on other cheaper or more expensive alternatives. The cheaper alternatives could include a day out to somewhere else other than a theme park like a zoo or a weekend at Butlins, the more expensive alternatives could include visiting DLP or choosing another kind of holiday entirely. Trying to one-up BPB or Paultons for example, just to try and hoover up a handful of Lancashire or Hampshire residents respectively, would just be a poor investment choice and would be a gross oversimplification of the market forces effecting the domestic leisure industry. This is not really a traditional style competition industry wide, let alone among parks operated by the same company that offers a variety of annual pass products aimed at getting consumers to visit both. If Brake Run: The Ride is successful, it'll not only help Towers in terms of MAP sales, but I'd also argue it would benefit the UK industry as a whole by attracting interest in it.

Furthermore, even if this was about the need to 'compete', this question assumes that it's purely based on rollercoasters, and more simply, the height of them. As we know, there's far more to a theme park than just coasters, and there's far more to the coasters themselves than just the height of them. Although Tower's offering as a park beyond headline coasters has dwindled as a whole since the early 2000's (flat rides, family attractions, food, entertainment), it's market position is still different to Thorpe. It's certainly different enough when you consider it's geographical location. They're different parks that still do have a different enough target audience. Again, this is market positioning, not competition or a race to the clouds.

If however you are asking how can Towers build a compelling attraction after Brake Run: The Ride opens with it's signature height record, there's a number of ways they can do this, whether it's building coaster or non-coaster attraction or not.
 
Max said:
Thinking of the height restriction as a burden is just the wrong way of thinking about it, it’s resulted in a line up of unique and interesting rides which you genuinely can’t find elsewhere. Hyperia looks fab, but what has Thorpe‘s lack of restrictions gotten it so far? Two off-the-shelf Intamins, a pretty bog standard Invert, a short wing coaster and Saw - The Ride.

Give me Towers line up any day of the week.
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Either way you look at it, it's still a massive disadvantage for Alton Towers to have a height restriction. Planning to start with will be a lot more complicated and also the cost of any major ride is going to be higher because of the ground work, mainly excavation work involved. Having to dig down has definitely had an adverse effect on the condition of Smiler and it's surrounding area. However it's massively improved the ride experience of Nemesis. I suppose keeping natural rock and stone is better than tipping several lorry loads of concrete into a hole.
 
Alton Towers has a national profile, most people in Yorkshire barely even know Thorpe Park exists, most of London know Towers exists.

Plus Hyperia is the 1st rollercoaster installed at Thorpe in 12 years, in that time Towers have had two despite a major incident occurring. Doesn’t seem like they are competing that hard.

The final consideration is Thorpe are not exactly replete with space, and they had a hell of a time get permission for Hyperia due to the environment agency. I actually think flooding risks will become a bigger problem for Thorpe than Height will be for Towers.
 
Max said:
Thinking of the height restriction as a burden is just the wrong way of thinking about it, it’s resulted in a line up of unique and interesting rides which you genuinely can’t find elsewhere. Hyperia looks fab, but what has Thorpe‘s lack of restrictions gotten it so far? Two off-the-shelf Intamins, a pretty bog standard Invert, a short wing coaster and Saw - The Ride.
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You guys give Saw a hard time. I know it's a bit rough but Smiler can be rough too and that's still a very good ride. Personally I think Saw is the most interesting ride in the lineup (not including Hyperia). Other than that though I agree that Thorpe haven't really utilised space in the same way Towers have with their coasters. Think Hyperia is the first ride to push the boundaries a bit more and hopefully that trend continues in the future
 
Ethan said:
You guys give Saw a hard time. I know it's a bit rough but Smiler can be rough too and that's still a very good ride. Personally I think Saw is the most interesting ride in the lineup (not including Hyperia). Other than that though I agree that Thorpe haven't really utilised space in the same way Towers have with their coasters. Think Hyperia is the first ride to push the boundaries a bit more and hopefully that trend continues in the future
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I think we give Saw and Smiler a hard time as both have aged badly.
 
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