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Traveller's Day
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Scott
Former TS Team Member
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Blimey! I go on holiday for a week and the forum implodes in an epic debate!
Probably shouldn't be chipping my two cents in as the debates kinda finished now, but I can't help myself. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with reporting that a group of people have visited the park in the past, caused trouble disproportionate to usual levels and thus provoked a reaction by the park to increase security.
Surely as a site devoted to Towers, TS has a duty to report this heightened security and tell its readers that despite this, the day went rather smoothly? We're not reading the Daily Mail here, we're reading an Alton Towers enthusiast site. There wasn't any sensationalist language, there weren't derogatory comments from the team and the report was relevant in terms of the park.
Had 'the park was full of thieving pikeys' been posted as news on the site I think we would all be a bit more concerned but this debate really seems like a lot of fuss of nothing in my personal opinion.
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Probably shouldn't be chipping my two cents in as the debates kinda finished now, but I can't help myself. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with reporting that a group of people have visited the park in the past, caused trouble disproportionate to usual levels and thus provoked a reaction by the park to increase security.
Surely as a site devoted to Towers, TS has a duty to report this heightened security and tell its readers that despite this, the day went rather smoothly? We're not reading the Daily Mail here, we're reading an Alton Towers enthusiast site. There wasn't any sensationalist language, there weren't derogatory comments from the team and the report was relevant in terms of the park.
Had 'the park was full of thieving pikeys' been posted as news on the site I think we would all be a bit more concerned but this debate really seems like a lot of fuss of nothing in my personal opinion.
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BigAl
TS Member
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When everyone was back on Towers Times, didn't the team report on various Christian days when a large amount of Christians were at the park?
Why didn't anyone pick-up on those reports as the Christian community that attended were singled out there and they became the focus of articles and social media conversations, etc... Of course, their presence didn't result in increased security for them, but nobody in the Christian group that attended those events did anything bad at Alton Towers prior to their later visits to warrant an increase in security staff.
Did nobody pick-up on those reports because there's less controversy surrounding that community and their visits? Is it because fewer people care about that community and/or the possibility of being slightly negative towards them, as Christians tend not to get so fussy when someone says something that conflicts with their beliefs or does something to try and stir fuss amongst them? Is it because the Christian community isn't a minority so fewer people can feel sorry for them in situations that might not always shine a positive light on them? Is it all of those reasons?
I expect the same reports on all groups, no matter who they are, what they've done or what they stand for. It's interesting to read what's happening at the park and I think that avoiding things because there might be some people who feel a little uncomfortable reading certain things is just as bad as saying something negative towards the community. Why should they be ignored? Why should they not be treated in the same way as everyone else? If one group receives attention for being on park, shouldn't all groups?
Alton Towers doesn't have a hidden agenda regarding certain groups of visitors, they just care about the quality of everyone's day at the park and how visitors treat their staff and attractions.
I also think that trying to write off other peoples views just because they conflict with your own by stating that everyone else is just following the team is rather rude, unfair and unhelpful in this kind of debate. It serves no other purpose than to create unnecessary negativity in what has otherwise been a calm debate about how to go about reporting on sensitive topics such as this.
It's highly unlikely that a few minor mistakes made by the team in their Facebook comments and articles will result in the British public persecuting and shunning the traveller community. It's being too overly-critical about something that most people won't even bat an eyelid over. Everyone here is able to realise all this and I feel that a fuss has been created over nothing at all really.
Carry on.
Why didn't anyone pick-up on those reports as the Christian community that attended were singled out there and they became the focus of articles and social media conversations, etc... Of course, their presence didn't result in increased security for them, but nobody in the Christian group that attended those events did anything bad at Alton Towers prior to their later visits to warrant an increase in security staff.
Did nobody pick-up on those reports because there's less controversy surrounding that community and their visits? Is it because fewer people care about that community and/or the possibility of being slightly negative towards them, as Christians tend not to get so fussy when someone says something that conflicts with their beliefs or does something to try and stir fuss amongst them? Is it because the Christian community isn't a minority so fewer people can feel sorry for them in situations that might not always shine a positive light on them? Is it all of those reasons?
I expect the same reports on all groups, no matter who they are, what they've done or what they stand for. It's interesting to read what's happening at the park and I think that avoiding things because there might be some people who feel a little uncomfortable reading certain things is just as bad as saying something negative towards the community. Why should they be ignored? Why should they not be treated in the same way as everyone else? If one group receives attention for being on park, shouldn't all groups?
Alton Towers doesn't have a hidden agenda regarding certain groups of visitors, they just care about the quality of everyone's day at the park and how visitors treat their staff and attractions.
I also think that trying to write off other peoples views just because they conflict with your own by stating that everyone else is just following the team is rather rude, unfair and unhelpful in this kind of debate. It serves no other purpose than to create unnecessary negativity in what has otherwise been a calm debate about how to go about reporting on sensitive topics such as this.
It's highly unlikely that a few minor mistakes made by the team in their Facebook comments and articles will result in the British public persecuting and shunning the traveller community. It's being too overly-critical about something that most people won't even bat an eyelid over. Everyone here is able to realise all this and I feel that a fuss has been created over nothing at all really.
Carry on.
I have a feeling you have just created this thread to stir debate, I see nothing wrong with reporting this day. It's the same as reporting fireworks went off without a hitch.
It's unfair to water down the effort towers put in to assure the safety of their guests just because some people too sensitive view it as xenophobic.
By the sounds of it Towers did a brilliant job making sure nothing serious happened, been to trevellers day in the past I think its perfectly sensible to congratulate Towers on their effort.
Get off your politically correct high horse Sam.
If TST reported "the dickish gypos ruined our day at towers, but towers responded well" you may have a point. But I'm afraid they didn't.
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It's unfair to water down the effort towers put in to assure the safety of their guests just because some people too sensitive view it as xenophobic.
By the sounds of it Towers did a brilliant job making sure nothing serious happened, been to trevellers day in the past I think its perfectly sensible to congratulate Towers on their effort.
Get off your politically correct high horse Sam.
If TST reported "the dickish gypos ruined our day at towers, but towers responded well" you may have a point. But I'm afraid they didn't.
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TheMan
TS Member
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Ok, I'd stepped out of this topic but let's make this clear.
There are many of us, whom through this topic AGREED with the fact that Tower's were RIGHT in their actions, that REPORTING was useful - but that the NATURE in which it was reported, and the SUBSEQUENT COMMENTS that arose as a DIRECT RESULT of the STYLE of reporting, came across in a fashion I do NOT believe the site would wish to be viewed in.
I also, am absolutely DISGUSTED at the way everyone (not everyone, edited, a few) keep having a pop at Sam, in such a personal fashion! I have watched these forums for MANY years, VERY quietly - as I found them informative and helpful.
However, I have to say - on balance, and YES ISLANDER WITHOUT PREJUDICE, PRE JUDGEMENT OR BIAS MATE, LIKE IT OR NOT, this bleeting at Sam most DEFINITELY disappointing to see!
I'm beginning to wonder, if it is actually worth posting on this site! The attitudes of some on here, towards others, are quite derogatory and unpleasant!
There is a certain familiarity that comes across, with more than a heap of presupposition to some peoples comments. I have viewed them all, AND YES ISLANDER ONCE AGAIN, as AN UNBIASED NEUTRAL I really have found it quite distasteful to be around.
To my self, to have already received personal barbed comments, completely irrelevant to the points at hand, as a NEW MEMBER, trying to contribute across a RANGE of topics in the forum I find this quite absurd.
I'm all for heated debates, I was having one with Sam in another topic for goodness sakes, but there is more than just SAM pointing out the reference issues here.
OK, his views ARE idealistic and not in their entirety practical - I'd still rather more people had THOSE views, than some of the frankly ludicrous ones I've read since. Using "JEWS" as a replacement was also, absolutely disgraceful by the way.
Dress is it up ALL YOU LIKE, but Sam's "political high horse" was one that actually has a sociologically HIGHER MORAL POSITION than the likes of that last comment I read directed AT HIM.
The points, at large, for practical reasons, reasoned more carefully ie - Reporting/Security/Practicality etc - I DO ACTUALLY agree with (more, to discourage the kind of quotes that appeared early in this topic, rather than the ACTUAL reporting itself, therefore maintaining a position of RESPONSIBILITY in control of a PUBLIC FORUM - which the Team agreed on anyway, no issues there at all for me now).
But this constant bombardment at Sam I feel VERY, VERY uneasy with. Certainly not portraying that of an inclusive, warm, welcoming forum that is for sure - HEATED TOPIC OR NOT, there is a BASIC level of respect missing here!
EDIT:
It is ALSO pertinent to point out, that the way I would talk with familiarity to my friends in PRIVATE would not be the same as I would in a PUBLIC FORUM, where strangers or newcomers who I have supposedly WELCOMED into my house for example, would not have a wider contextual impression OF that friendship. Like I said, FAMILIARITY, is warping views here BIG TIME.
There are many of us, whom through this topic AGREED with the fact that Tower's were RIGHT in their actions, that REPORTING was useful - but that the NATURE in which it was reported, and the SUBSEQUENT COMMENTS that arose as a DIRECT RESULT of the STYLE of reporting, came across in a fashion I do NOT believe the site would wish to be viewed in.
I also, am absolutely DISGUSTED at the way everyone (not everyone, edited, a few) keep having a pop at Sam, in such a personal fashion! I have watched these forums for MANY years, VERY quietly - as I found them informative and helpful.
However, I have to say - on balance, and YES ISLANDER WITHOUT PREJUDICE, PRE JUDGEMENT OR BIAS MATE, LIKE IT OR NOT, this bleeting at Sam most DEFINITELY disappointing to see!
I'm beginning to wonder, if it is actually worth posting on this site! The attitudes of some on here, towards others, are quite derogatory and unpleasant!
There is a certain familiarity that comes across, with more than a heap of presupposition to some peoples comments. I have viewed them all, AND YES ISLANDER ONCE AGAIN, as AN UNBIASED NEUTRAL I really have found it quite distasteful to be around.
To my self, to have already received personal barbed comments, completely irrelevant to the points at hand, as a NEW MEMBER, trying to contribute across a RANGE of topics in the forum I find this quite absurd.
I'm all for heated debates, I was having one with Sam in another topic for goodness sakes, but there is more than just SAM pointing out the reference issues here.
OK, his views ARE idealistic and not in their entirety practical - I'd still rather more people had THOSE views, than some of the frankly ludicrous ones I've read since. Using "JEWS" as a replacement was also, absolutely disgraceful by the way.
Dress is it up ALL YOU LIKE, but Sam's "political high horse" was one that actually has a sociologically HIGHER MORAL POSITION than the likes of that last comment I read directed AT HIM.
The points, at large, for practical reasons, reasoned more carefully ie - Reporting/Security/Practicality etc - I DO ACTUALLY agree with (more, to discourage the kind of quotes that appeared early in this topic, rather than the ACTUAL reporting itself, therefore maintaining a position of RESPONSIBILITY in control of a PUBLIC FORUM - which the Team agreed on anyway, no issues there at all for me now).
But this constant bombardment at Sam I feel VERY, VERY uneasy with. Certainly not portraying that of an inclusive, warm, welcoming forum that is for sure - HEATED TOPIC OR NOT, there is a BASIC level of respect missing here!
EDIT:
It is ALSO pertinent to point out, that the way I would talk with familiarity to my friends in PRIVATE would not be the same as I would in a PUBLIC FORUM, where strangers or newcomers who I have supposedly WELCOMED into my house for example, would not have a wider contextual impression OF that friendship. Like I said, FAMILIARITY, is warping views here BIG TIME.
Dave
TS Founding Member
People on both sides of this argument need to stop with the personal attacks. And comparing TS to EDL based on absolutely no evidence is not only damaging but also libellous. Can we try and regain some context here and stop attacking people without adding to the debate. And that point is aimed at both sides of the argument.
I'm getting fed up of feeling like we are expected to sensor one side of this debate because otherwise members are either going to attack one-another or attack the site. With friends like these who needs enemies.
I'm getting fed up of feeling like we are expected to sensor one side of this debate because otherwise members are either going to attack one-another or attack the site. With friends like these who needs enemies.
EuroSatch
TS Member
I must say I resent being termed "sensitive" for having strong feelings about this, but I'm backing out of this topic as it is getting out of hand, not because my views have changed.
I'll end with the final word that it saddens me that it's seen as acceptable by people to hold prejudice views against a particular race because they are seen as trouble makers. This is aimed at society as a whole, not anyone in particular, but I would've thought the majority of people on here would know better than to tarnish people within an ethnicity or social group with the same brush.
As for the article, I would just ask the team are mindful in future that some topics may be sensitive, and unintended views may be portrayed, and prejudices shown where they may not lie
I'll end with the final word that it saddens me that it's seen as acceptable by people to hold prejudice views against a particular race because they are seen as trouble makers. This is aimed at society as a whole, not anyone in particular, but I would've thought the majority of people on here would know better than to tarnish people within an ethnicity or social group with the same brush.
As for the article, I would just ask the team are mindful in future that some topics may be sensitive, and unintended views may be portrayed, and prejudices shown where they may not lie
TheMan
TS Member
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Dave, I have largely agreed with the teams stance on what occurred, why it happened, what could be done in the future, and an incorrect view that through happenstance can lead to a misrepresentation of opinion - and also, my dealings so far with you on this site have been positive in my opinion.
However, once again, I find Sam making an issue that you direcly refer to, in defending himself from a personal attack - I don't condone his comments, as I don't think it helps anyone make a point. Yet there have been many others, that of which you have not directly mentioned, some of which aimed at my self - that are given a more traditional, "can both sides please stop bickering" approach. Now again, that is fine, I don't really want anyone else involved in my affairs in that respect, however it does shine a light on a rather one sided attitude.
The distinct irony of this of course, is that in practical terms, I probably agree more so with both what TST should report, and the response tower's needed to take, as I believe Sam's stance to be that of an idealistic and fundamentally impractical manner. That however, does not make it wrong! Quite the contrary in fact!
What I do feel to be, misguided, is some of the language and references being ignored, the fact that certain members are seemingly singled out way more than others for specific criticisms, that this debate became anything but respectful and balanced - as I my self discovered.
Now, I'm big and ugly enough to more than look after my self on a forum lol! Let's be clear, I deal with far worse than this every day as many do I'm sure - but, does that make it right? No, most certainly not.
Now I may be a newbie, out of the clique (of which, there most certainly is one, that is more than apparent now), and of very strong opinions - but I have already seen, that I challenged a status-quo here and got jumped on for it.
There are very many lovely members here also, and I generally find what the team are attempting to do, to be refreshing and honest - but this has most certainly highlighted, in my opinion (one that is not of inexperience), areas that can be addressed and that aren't.
For me, the debate now has passed - I accept TST made an honest mistake, things will be done better next time as appropriate with a publicly inclusive forum (for TST's wider benefit, which was always my concern anyway!), that Tower's had little choice and ultimately did the correct thing, and that I appreciate the actual intention that was behind it all. That's fine, no issues here. None whatsoever.
I respect and see both sides of the debate, and those who made salient points on both sides, it was interesting to gauge in what is a very prickly issue! To those whom however, were bereft of basic decency and respect, and whom decided to specifically target peoples persona's, rather than the sensible debate at hand - including me - you're painting this forum in a POOR POOR light.
And yes, that is to an unbiased outsider.
Edit by James: Personal insults removed.
However, once again, I find Sam making an issue that you direcly refer to, in defending himself from a personal attack - I don't condone his comments, as I don't think it helps anyone make a point. Yet there have been many others, that of which you have not directly mentioned, some of which aimed at my self - that are given a more traditional, "can both sides please stop bickering" approach. Now again, that is fine, I don't really want anyone else involved in my affairs in that respect, however it does shine a light on a rather one sided attitude.
The distinct irony of this of course, is that in practical terms, I probably agree more so with both what TST should report, and the response tower's needed to take, as I believe Sam's stance to be that of an idealistic and fundamentally impractical manner. That however, does not make it wrong! Quite the contrary in fact!
What I do feel to be, misguided, is some of the language and references being ignored, the fact that certain members are seemingly singled out way more than others for specific criticisms, that this debate became anything but respectful and balanced - as I my self discovered.
Now, I'm big and ugly enough to more than look after my self on a forum lol! Let's be clear, I deal with far worse than this every day as many do I'm sure - but, does that make it right? No, most certainly not.
Now I may be a newbie, out of the clique (of which, there most certainly is one, that is more than apparent now), and of very strong opinions - but I have already seen, that I challenged a status-quo here and got jumped on for it.
There are very many lovely members here also, and I generally find what the team are attempting to do, to be refreshing and honest - but this has most certainly highlighted, in my opinion (one that is not of inexperience), areas that can be addressed and that aren't.
For me, the debate now has passed - I accept TST made an honest mistake, things will be done better next time as appropriate with a publicly inclusive forum (for TST's wider benefit, which was always my concern anyway!), that Tower's had little choice and ultimately did the correct thing, and that I appreciate the actual intention that was behind it all. That's fine, no issues here. None whatsoever.
I respect and see both sides of the debate, and those who made salient points on both sides, it was interesting to gauge in what is a very prickly issue! To those whom however, were bereft of basic decency and respect, and whom decided to specifically target peoples persona's, rather than the sensible debate at hand - including me - you're painting this forum in a POOR POOR light.
And yes, that is to an unbiased outsider.
Edit by James: Personal insults removed.
James
TS Founding Member
EuroSatch said:
We have taken this on board and will of course take closer care in future.
In the grand scheme of things, I'm sure that's the answer everyone has been waiting for. Sadly I'm lead to believe this small matter has been blown way out of proportion. Several team members have admitted that we acknowledge how our article could have been portrayed and that we will handle such subjects with more care in future.
As I mentioned on the previous page. There's not a lot more we can say or do.
Jem8472
TS Member
Considering this is just turning into one of the "I'm a victim stop being nasty to me because you don't agree with my view point" type of threads would it not be better to lock it? The last few pages have really added very little to the original point/counter points so its just people being keyboard warriors for the sake of it.
TheMan
TS Member
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James said:EuroSatch said:
We have taken this on board and will of course take closer care in future.
In the grand scheme of things, I'm sure that's the answer everyone has been waiting for. Sadly I'm lead to believe this small matter has been blown way out of proportion. Several team members have admitted that we acknowledge how our article could have been portrayed and that we will handle such subjects with more care in future.
As I mentioned on the previous page. There's not a lot more we can say or do.
James for the record, you come across extremely professional and helpful in all your comments.
I don't have any issues at all with the majority of the team, or as has been said, the actions that were taken. My point, still largely ignored by the masses here I might add - was that of how certain members were more singled out than others, and how this comes across to new members like myself - who have actually taken a good deal of time to attempt to be helpful to others, and engage in various topics... whilst I might add, steering clear and simply reading and appreciating those of which I have no useful info to add lol!
There is most definitely the feeling of a clique in here though I must say, your good self most certainly NOT included in that.
Anyway, for the large part, I feel most people of reasonable disposition will observe that for themselves. I do however remain a bit shocked by it, and clearly it triggers off certain defensive tendencies in others. Things that are a total aside to the central debate.
Again though, just as in the original topic, it appears a minority, ironically.
I would however, take this chance to thank those that have been welcoming and warm, even if we do share opposing views on some interesting topics.
Craig
TS Administrator
This all really seems to be going nowhere now with things just going round in circles. People have made their points and both sides have responded yet we're revisiting discussion from pages ago over and over again.
As Joel said earlier, we as a team have responded on multiple occasions to the points made. Since that post, there has been nothing of note which hasn't exactly been said before, aside from further attacks on people for simply having an opinion of their own.
As a result, I'm going to lock this topic. Should anyone have any questions or queries about this, please pm me directly.
As Joel said earlier, we as a team have responded on multiple occasions to the points made. Since that post, there has been nothing of note which hasn't exactly been said before, aside from further attacks on people for simply having an opinion of their own.
As a result, I'm going to lock this topic. Should anyone have any questions or queries about this, please pm me directly.
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