Traveller's Day

[Sam]

I don't mean for this to be a general topic on the traveller's days at Alton Towers, and the rights and wrongs thereof. That topic belongs elsewhere.

This is just to share a few thoughts on the TST Facebook.

Yes Kellie is correct - there are a lot of travellers on park which Alton Towers were expecting and have done their best to prepare for, including additional security staff, metal detectors and bag xray scanners, and has also banned the sale of alcohol today across the park.

I don't want to get into a big debate about racism or the treatment of travellers in the UK or anything like that. But one thing we can all agree on is that it's a controversial issue.

I'd gently suggest that if I was running the TS Facebook, I'd probably try and avoid making any comments (as a site) in the traveller day debate, simply because it's such a hot button issue.

Not because people shouldn't have opinions about it - I just feel that TowersStreet's official social media presence should maybe try and avoid anything that makes the site appear to have a 'position' in this debate.

It's not like it's major Alton Towers news that needs covering. It'd seem to be that the site would look more professional and avoid any potential allegations flying around if it simply steered clear of this sort of thing.

The language as well, I have a bit of concern about. If you're going to comment on this as a site, it might be best to wait and really think about what you're going to say, rather than do a quick update on-park. The phrases "were expecting" and "done their best to prepare for" do have implications of some sort of invasion, and implies that they are a problem that the park has dealt with. These people are paying guests.

I doubt this was the intention, but language can be easily misunderstood. When using that sort of language, it's probably best to be very careful to avoid even implied meaning.

Given that 'traveller day' has taken place many times in the past, I find it a bit concerning that this is the first time TS/TT have given it a news article (as I can recall), especially as the article mentions that there were no major incidents today, and there seemed to be less travellers on park than previous 'traveller days'.

This may not be true, but suddenly devoting a news article to, what is frankly a bit of a non-story, may look like someone has got an agenda to push. That's just the way I think it could look to outsiders, and one thing I like about TowersStreet is the feeling of professionalism and quality. I don't want to see the site jeopardise that.

 

[BarryZola]

I think you raise some valid and very sensible points there Sam.

 

[Craig]

I disagree that this sort of thing should just be ignored. There was clearly a great deal of preparation and cost that went into yesterday's operations on park. The removal of the sale of alcohol, the additional security and the police presence on park. All of this at a massive cost to Alton Towers and hardly something that's not noticeable to guests on park. This for me more than justifies the story.

It is a controversial subject of course, but it's something which I strongly feel should be reported. Despite there being no major issues on park which I saw, it clearly did have a visible impact on the atmosphere on park, and I still see some minor incidents which would clearly have got out of hand of it weren't for the additional security measures. Perhaps the news title could have had more consideration as Joel had mentioned on Facebook but overall the article was more than justified.

As for the Facebook comment, I don't think we should shy away from the fact that it was a day on park yesterday where a large number of the travelling community had chosen to attend. A number of people had mentioned it, and as a site we can't simply ignore that.

We have in the past reported in operational issues which caused an impact to operations on park, the school trip period, and the now defunct Christian day for example and this should be no different. This situation is more controversial of course, but the fact remains it was clear to all that the additional presence was necessary due to large numbers of the travelling community attending the park.

 

[James]

Speaking as an individual. The article was justified well.

Considering the massive costs, organisation and change in operations Alton Towers go through only a handful of times a year it's only normal to report this to a user base. After all, some people have no clue what 'traveller day' is. They could have visited park yesterday wondering why there was so much security on park, come online today and now have seen our article and know why the park was how it was yesterday.

If anything, you should be questioning why Alton Towers treat the 'travellers' in such a way. We have merely reported the actions of the park. As Craig mentions above, Joel mentioned on Facebook that the article title could have been worded differently. However the article content itself suits perfectly well.

I understand your view, Sam. On the part of that it could look like someone has an agenda. However we used to report this stuff on TT every year! So it's not really a massive revelation that this type of article pops up once a year or more.

 

[Dave]

I think my opinion would be if someone can tell us another reason there was such a high police and security presence then we will have a more ambiguous news article. Why should anti social behaviour and the parks response to this year-on-year be ignored because it is centred on one social group. If it was football hooligans no one would bat an eyelid if it was mentioned.

 

[Sam]

Even if you think it was a good idea to publish an article and make those comments, the language was poorly thought out, and unprofessional.

I just want to post something as a bit of a thought experiment. I've removed the names as I don't want to try and have a pop at anyone at all. But I hope this is thought-provoking, and maybe persuades the site team that they should handle the language of this situation a bit better next time...

What's with all the bloody security today?? Although having a look around park think I may have figured it out xxxxx
21 hours ago via mobile · Like · 3

Why has something happened Kellie ? X
21 hours ago via mobile · Like

There's an awful lot of Jews (at least 150+) causing mayhem! judging by what happened to us on hex, they're definitely needed here today! xxxx
21 hours ago via mobile · Like

Oh no sounds like it's Jew day then.
21 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1

Unfortunately it is! Xxxx
21 hours ago via mobile · Like

TowersStreet Yes Kellie is correct - there are a lot of Jews on park which Alton Towers were expecting and have done their best to prepare for, including additional security staff, metal detectors and bag xray scanners, and has also banned the sale of alcohol today across the park.
21 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

The Jews caused problems last year on the first Sunday of Scarefest by being generally anti-social. Earlier in the year, there was a Sunday near Easter, IIRC, when there were numerous Jews on park, and the heightened security presence meant that problems were not as severe as previously. Hopefully, the same will be the case this time around.
21 hours ago · Like

Last year the Jews were awful, police had the patrol the park and Tower Of Terrors had to be shut.
21 hours ago via mobile · Like

Fair play to them, I feel a lot better with all the security and police here! Just a shame they have to go to that extreme! Xxxx
21 hours ago via mobile · Like

today is likely to be the scariest day of scarefest, if you want a truly terrifying day out.
21 hours ago · Like · 3

I hope the Jews aren't ruining the day for everyone!
21 hours ago · Like

Sam Gregory The Jews have caused absolutely no problems at all today on park as far as I can see.
21 hours ago via mobile · Like

Jew wkend today then! Glad I booked for this coming Sat then although I do feel sorry for those of u that are having your day ruined, it's well known they go the first wkend of scarefest,which is why I plan around it, I've nothing against them but they do tend to spoil things for the rest of the visitor's in the park.
20 hours ago via mobile · Like

Sam Gregory Interesting how the people ranting about Jews aren't actually on park, where I have witnessed no incidents all day. You clearly do have something against them Kellie...
20 hours ago via mobile · Like

TowersStreet Sam a member has reported trouble on Hex with a group and were offered a re-ride today, so there has been some minor issue at least.
20 hours ago via mobile · Like · 3

Sam Gregory ...like there is every single day on at least one ride on park.
20 hours ago via mobile · Like

No I'm not there for that reason Sam as I have experienced it b4!!! I DO NOT Have anything against Jews at all but I am not going to spend a fortune on a day I look forward to all year to be verbally abused and pushed in front of in ques, and lose out on time on rides and mazes because they have to close,because of their behavior. Your obviously lucky then Sam that u haven't had to experience ant of this!!!!!!!!
20 hours ago via mobile · Like

TowersStreet That's disappointing to hear you see it happen every day on at least one ride Sam. I'm sure that the increased security and other measures today were not in vain though, and have done a great job at ensuring the majority of guests have a great day on park.
20 hours ago via mobile · Like · 4

I'm on the park now Sam and I've seen it first hand on hex how anti social Jews are, also I have witnessed park staff complaining to the police and security about there behaviour, now it's not aimed at all the Jews here today, but it's not just a minority unfortunately! Xxxx
20 hours ago via mobile · Like

Turned up on park not realising its a Jew day. Never again. Awful day. Came home early just not worth the hassle
19 hours ago via mobile · Like · 2

other than the usual huge crowd of Jews around the towers gateway and the usual walking into people because they are in their way nothing major to report and several hundred less there than usual there was talks about trying to close the sanctury and tott by 7pm though which is when they closed last year on Jew day the police were also concerned of a big fight brewing around the gatehouse (hex walkway) though and no the writing on the walkway is not currently on if they are going to use it

Also, this comment from your official Facebook page really irritated me:

That's disappointing to hear you see it happen every day on at least one ride Sam. I'm sure that the increased security and other measures today were not in vain though, and have done a great job at ensuring the majority of guests have a great day on park.
20 hours ago via mobile · Like · 4

The sarcasm. Many of the team work or have worked at Alton Towers. You know that minor incidents happen on park every day. So why are you being sarcastic against me for saying so?! It really worries me that the official Facebook page would be so manipulative to suggest that a minor incident on Hex is somehow out of the ordinary, and proof about how terribly behaved the travellers are. When you all know perfectly well that a minor anti-social incident happens at least once a day.

 

[Craig]

I still struggle to understand what you are getting at here Sam? If there were a large proportion of Jewish people on park causing issues we would say so too?

Facts are facts, there was a large gathering of the travelling community at the park which warranted additional security. How else would you explain the reasoning behind what went on yesterday?

As for the Facebook comment, there was no sarcasm intended? A lot of our followers on Facebook won't know you from Adam, so if we reply using the official account it will take a standard tone in the sand way we would with anyone on there.

I would also add that although I said incidents were minor yesterday, they ones I saw still required far more of a response than a usual day at Alton. You only had to see how staff were at the end of the day to know that it was a difficult day despite it being far quieter than Saturday.

 

[Sam]

I still struggle to understand what you are getting at here Sam? If there were a large proportion of Jewish people on park causing issues we would say so too?

They weren't causing issues. There were no major issues (or any more minor issues than usual) all day. Come on Craig. 'Large group goes to park, nothing happens'. Surely you must be able to see this is a bit of a non-story...

Facts are facts, there was a large gathering of the travelling community at the park which warranted additional security. How else would you explain the reasoning behind what went on yesterday?

I'd say that Towers reacted to the hysteria and xenophobia around travellers by drafting in an unnecessary level of security.

A much better TowersStreet news story could have been "Travellers day sees no major issues despite park fears." I thought this site was meant to be critical of the park sometimes...?

If you're going to deal with very complex issues of race and minorities as a website (which I don't think you really should anyway - nothing happened all day) then it should be very carefully thought out. This hasn't been, from the news article to the Facebook comments.

 

[Natalie]

Sam after work I had dinner with some staff members from Towers, they have had minor issues but they dealt with them in the right way to not make it apparent to the general public. Just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen. Staff members dealt with spitting in ride stations, having sex against ride supports and excessive queue jumping amongst other things.

 

[T]

Can I just point out that yesterday, I too had a bad ride on Hex due to the travellers causing mayhem, using flash photography, being loud & generally rowdy? It's most certainly not one member as seen on the Facebook page that experienced this.

On the whole the day went smoothly, however I did see, on a few occasions, Security dealing with anti social behaviour. That's why they were there, and this shouldn't be ignored.

As TS have mentioned, AT went through a lot of preparation and extra costs to facilitate yesterday, and it was a worthy story to publish.


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[Fredward]

Your just oveethinking this Sam,

Something happened on park that affected guests enjoyment the team thought to report it in a non offensive and calm way.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sam]

Can I just point out that yesterday, I too had a bad ride on Hex due to the travellers causing mayhem, using flash photography, being loud & generally rowdy? It's most certainly not one member as seen on the Facebook page that experienced this.

Actually I think that was me. *awkward*

having sex against ride supports

Yeah, because that definitely happened. :

 

[T]

Can I just point out that yesterday, I too had a bad ride on Hex due to the travellers causing mayhem, using flash photography, being loud & generally rowdy? It's most certainly not one member as seen on the Facebook page that experienced this.

Actually I think that was me. *awkward*

So you held up the entire ride with a group of 10-15 flamboyantly dressed people, by running around, pushing, shoving and generally being a nuisance?

I think it says it all when the Ride Hosts can be heard saying 'For gods sake' under their breath as the group work out the complex seating arrangements on Hex...


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[Natalie]

Sam the bottom end of X-sector is dark at about 8pm and the staff member in question is very trustworthy, plus it's easy to hitch a skirt up and unzip a zipper.

 

[Craig]

They weren't causing issues. There were no major issues (or any more minor issues than usual) all day. Come on Craig. 'Large group goes to park, nothing happens'. Surely you must be able to see this is a bit of a non-story...

That's not the article we wrote, there was a story to report. We talked about the end of Scarefest preview weekend and the fact there were major operational changes made on Sunday to reduce the possibility of trouble. The changes were noticeable to all guests and therefore should be reported. We stated in the article there had been no major issues, which in part was due to the changes they made.

I would certainly say they were far more issues than usual after talking to others on park and seeing a few incidents myself. I saw multiple issues in mazes where the police attended, an issue with someone refusing to leave the Oblivion shop and crowd management by security due to a large congregation of people in front of the archway at the Towers. This is solely what I've seen myself, and clearly this is far more than what I would see on what was a quiet Sunday in October.

I'd say that Towers reacted to the hysteria and xenophobia around travellers by drafting in an unnecessary level of security.

A much better TowersStreet news story could have been "Travellers day sees no major issues despite park fears." I thought this site was meant to be critical of the park sometimes...?

We've had a discussion pretty much every single year on TTF and on here about the park's operations on days when the travelling community choose to visit en masse. There have been issues in the past and, as recently as last year incidents which I would class as serious. In some cases we have criticised the park's lack of response to the situation. I don't feel the park should be criticised for ensuring guest safety and providing a sufficient presence of security which has seemed to minimise disruption this year.

If you're going to deal with very complex issues of race and minorities as a website (which I don't think you really should anyway - nothing happened all day) then it should be very carefully thought out. This hasn't been, from the news article to the Facebook comments.

We simply reported the facts that issues have occurred on previous days like this. We described the changes made operationally as a result of the previous issues and what appears to have been a (mostly) successful outcome.

 

[BigAl]

I'd say that Towers reacted to the hysteria and xenophobia around travellers by drafting in an unnecessary level of security.

But they don't know what behaviour to expect. This year things were obviously much more settled, but last year we witnessed theming being broken, people fighting, a ridiculous amount of queue jumping and various other things happening in the Gardens particularly that shouldn't be occurring in public, never mind at a family theme park. Alton Towers couldn't have guessed that this year would be different, so they brought more security in to ensure that everyone has a nice day out. Perhaps the extra security is the reason that this year was quieter than the last?

You could easily question why certain football teams get extra police on-standby when facing another football team that may happen to have some fans that aren't as friendly as others. It's unfair that people will single those fans out and see all the fans of that team in the same light, even if they aren't troublemakers, but that can't mean that taking action against others that might cause a fuss should be frowned upon. Extra police just ensures that everyone behaves and isn't designed to single anyone out.

The same can be said at Alton Towers. Last year we noticed that there were certainly two different kinds of Travellers. Whilst there were many troublemakers, we noticed that there were others who were extremely well-behaved; more so than your average park guest. They were It is unfortunate that people will see them as all the same, but Alton has to ensure that those who may cause a fuss don't. It doesn't matter who you are, you don't ever have the right to spoil a day out for anyone else, and on this particular day of the year in question, there's a significant amount of people who visit the park who do cause trouble. Just because they're members of a particular group in society surrounded with controversy doesn't mean that the park should tip-toe around just because it could cause offence to the odd person here and there. They dealt with the day appropriately as there was a significant improvement over last year which is why there's no topic in the AT general section of the forum. In situations like this, someone will more than likely always draw the short straw and take negatively to something, so Alton Towers staff had to make sure that this was minimised and as many people as possible could have a nice day out as possible.

I see nothing wrong with the comments made by Towers Street either, as they were simply reporting on a group of people that happened to cause trouble last Scarefest. Some people might want to know about that as they might not want to take their children or group of friends into an environment similar to last year and opt for a different day. It certainly wasn't an enjoyable place to be last year on that particular day.

So long as nobody does anything or says anything offensive that's targeted at anyone, I don't see why we need to make a fuss out of this. If it takes extra security to make sure everyone behaves appropriately on certain days of the year, so be it.

 

[Dave]

Alton Towers have a high security presence on these days through experience, last year I saw 8 separate incidents of theft on the same day, a sho assistant spat on and a staff member had a pumpkin thrown at their head. It's testament to pre planning that this year has been better than previous.

Also I doubt Towers would spend thousands on security just due to xenophobic preconceptions... This is Merlin!

 

[EuroSatch]

Clearly there are higher "incidents" on these so called days, and I'm not denying that. But I think some sensitivity needs to be used when considering it worthy of reporting.

On Saturday I saw a group of non-traveller guests passing their child a pumpkin to use as a football against the SW7 site. This was not reported. However, had the same family done it on Sunday and worn skimpier clothing, they would have been considered a "traveller" family, and probably have been reported as kicking the pumpkin at passers-by.

It seems to be socially acceptable to display prejudice and racist views towards gypsies, and this gas been fuelled by the media and Daily Mail readers. I'm not suggesting the team hold these views, but reporting it as news that gypsies have visited a place THAT THEY ARE PERFECTLY ENTITLED TO opens the door to these kind of attitudes. People recognise gypsies as portrayed in various C4 programmes, and decide that because they have different social values and lifestyles, it is ok to be racist and label them all with the same brush.

How Alton Towers respond to expected volumes of people that they have identified as trouble makers is up to them. The news report could have done with being a bit more objective and state that Alton Towers identified there may be issues, and worked accordingly. But it was not needed to be included.

I was going to do a similar post to Sam but he got there first, and replace the news article with 'Muslim' in place of 'traveller'. I think Sam made the point quite fairly, and worries me that some people consider it ok to discuss travellers in such a way.

Not all of them are causing trouble. Yes, there are the odd few, and because there was a large proportion there on Sunday, these troubles are highlighted more so. But following the media portrayal, people responded to the TS post as if the place has been invaded by an undesirable race of people.

That way of thinking is dangerous, and unfortunately is akin to the portrayal of Jews in Nazi Germany, and how Muslims are in much western media

 

[TheMan]

Sam the bottom end of X-sector is dark at about 8pm and the staff member in question is very trustworthy, plus it's easy to hitch a skirt up and unzip a zipper.

Yup, and just in case you don't know how, there's always a Thorpe Park map to give you some hints...

(Sorry, off topic, couldn't help it ;D)

As an addendum to this, with little history on the two forums for engaging in any of this, and having worked in awkward situations within hospitality (including an annual UK gangster convention! NO, I kid you not.), I can appreciate both sides of this debate.

First off, Sam is correct, the language used in that quoted post is actually quite judgmental. I am letting you know this, as essentially a completely unbiased impartial reader. When I read both descriptions of what had been said, without viewing said page, it appeared Sam was being a little OTT.

I must say though, he is right, in that the MANNER is which the information presented, is most certainly not purely factual - and is laden with presupposition and bias - in fact, those quotes themselves, actually border on racism really.

At the same time though, I agree that in this case what Tower's did was a measured recourse based on past experience, to ensure the maintained operations of the day for the rest of the guests.

I'm completely neutral here guys, but I find both extremes of the same point are in fact, neither practical or unbiased.

Measures WERE clearly needed to protect staff and customers, fair enough, a moderate visible presence and extra security from what I can gather... reassuring, however, the language I read was most certainly not purely "reporting", and most certainly does cast the FB posts that I read in a biased light.

And yup, I have a fair whack of journalism experience also.

Now you can take those points on board or not, that's not why I wrote this - neither is my intention to annoy or inflame this debate further.

My honest, UNBIASED, assessment as purely a reader with interest in this field (ie, coasters).

 

[Meat Pie]

I live fairly close to a large traveller community, and it has to be said that there seems to be a culture of violence, misogyny, and intimidation emanating from them. Just because it is behaviour produced from a different a culture, does not mean that it cannot be criticised for the same reasons we would criticize behaviour originating from our own.

However, I do seriously see an issue here of social profiling and labeling. The TS reports do (likely by mistake) suggest that bad behaviour and 'incidents' were to be more expected on 'Traveler Day' than any other. This expectation is problematic as it seems to give permission to judge individual acts as only having happened because it was a Traveler who committed it. Just being born into a Traveler family doesn't inherently mean you are more likely to cause trouble, however the cultural trends within that community can shape someone's behaviour. Now those negative cultural trends need to be researched and reviewed as to understand their origins, and so they can be eventually tackled. However, this will never work if said culture is slathered with external negative expectations of them from a prejudice media.

Basically... It could appear that you are lumping all Travelers in with the same generalisation which will never be accurate and will no doubt perpetuate the labels that reactionary loonies of the Daily Mail and their cronies could abuse.

I just wonder if TS would have reported the increase of security at a minority considered more socially acceptable.