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Traveller's Day

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I have to agree with Sam to a large extent here.

I think that TowersStreet has sleepwalked into becoming a conduit for views straight out of The Ladybird Book of Xenophobia.

I appreciate the fast-pace of social media, and the fact that the Team are all untrained volunteers, but some of the language choices in updates yesterday were lamentable and not up to the professional image that TS prides itself on.

Where extremely emotive issues are discussed, many news outlets restrict the ability of users to comment on such news. Facebook is not conducive to such a restriction. Would it not have been better, therefore, to restrict such "news" to the site only?

Before the barrage of responses, I'd just like to say I brook no "freedom of speech" rebuttals on this: xenophobia and racism should be curtailed on a forum that wishes to maintain a professional image in terms of its news reporting, and the Team should certainly avoid, at all costs, being drawn into what come across as unguarded, biased remarks.
 
Oh, come on guys. Get a grip.

It is a fact, not an opinion, that excess trouble usually arises on Traveller's Day.

TowersStreet did not speak in a derogatory way at any point. You're reading into this far too much. I have a lot of respect for you Sam and often agree with your opinions, but I personally just feel you're a little bit hurt at a slightly blunt reply from the Facebook page.

TowersStreet houses many minorities; homosexuals, ethnic minorities and many others besides and never have I seen anything offensive. Come on, just let this go. It's just a pointless dig for no reason.
 
Islander said:
...I have to question the neutrality/unbiased nature of someone who makes a point of stating at least nine separate times that they are indeed neutral and unbiased.

:-\
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Sorry, I find that laughable, most of those times were in response to different people, and I am pointing out repeatedly, as the point was being largely ignored - that this was not coming from someone with any vested interest in what was being said. My views are not influenced by friendships, loyalty to anyone, previous experiences in direct regard to those personal ones that certain members have had.

I even made an effort to point out, that indeed, those who HAD personal experiences of this will most likely have a different view - and that I am not judging anyone either way.

Likewise I think Sam was unfairly treated, and that if all was actually well and good in the world, whilst idealistic they are actually the most positive opinions! I also have defended a very salient point that was made about Alton having actually taken quite a measured, sensible level of preventative measures, based on their previous experiences as a business. Also, the need to report is valuable. From the off, and I maintain still, the issues I raised were firstly - how Sam was treated, and secondly, how some of those comments in direct response to TST reporting came across as, edgy shall we say.

As I said before, you might not enjoy reading that - but that's my honest, unbiased perspective - there I said it again.

MY OPINIONS:
Towers were right,
TST were right to report,
Response to Sam's mature thinking - comes across to an outsider as quite bad really.
Responses as exampled in quotes earlier in the article - also, not painting the best picture of an inclusive and open, welcoming forum!

I am giving you my views as an outsider, and "newbie" to this forum - but anything BUT a newbie to social issues, and working to improve them...

There is a very defensive attitude going on here by a few, and I found your post very disingenuous. I also pointed out, that I felt it was of benefit to point this out to the Forum and I'm quite shocked at the response, and to use such a pseudo-psychological defense as "he who doth protest too much" in a totally out of context manner is indicative of that which I am describing.

At no point did I cast judgment upon ANYONE, including the "travelers". I have posted observations, and given opinions on how this COMES ACROSS.

Yet you have commented on how many times I said I remain unbiased, to seemingly discredit my points?

I simply wish to ensure, no one was under the impression I was judging them.

EDIT:
Simon above, says precisely what I mean. Probably in a far better fashion ;D

To continue to DEFEND this position, is unforunate
 
Sam said:
Once again, I seem to be attacked (particularly by Ash) for the terrible crime of pointing out that it might not be a good idea to write derogatory things about a racial group. I am by far the most bullied person on this forum.
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I know bullying when I see it, Sam - and you're not being bullied. I think you're misinterpreting the high volume of members against your views as bullying. You have posted something that obviously stirs up heated debate. So quite a few members have replied back to this with their views. Likewise, there are a few members that agree with your views and have replied back to others. Since you engage with quite a few heated topics you should no doubt by now know that strong words are thrown about in these topics. It's never meant in a malicious way though and the team step in when things can (very rarely) turn personal.

No one is bullying though. People are adding to the discussion and posting well written posts. No one is coming in here to pick you out with an insult, or corner you in order for you to stop posting. The nature of posts written towards you are in the same style of language you have written in yourself.

Although if you do feel there is bullying going on by particular members then you know that myself and the rest of the team are here to talk through any problems you have. :)

Sam said:
Just hold your hands up when you made a mistake.
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*jumps up and down* *waves*

My views are the same as Joel's - and the rest of the team feels the same, it was discussed briefly last night. We understand the article could have been written differently and we acknowledge the comments posted as an official face on our Facebook page. Obviously such things will be looked at more closely in future.

Although this topic is slowly going back in circles. Several members of the team have posted their views on the matter, we have acknowledged your views and other members views. There's not much else we can do apart from say that such articles will be approached in a different way in future.
 
I see it as this;

Past: Travellers + Towers = Trouble.
Present: Travellers (expected) + Towers + Preparation = Police/Security presence, across the park (as seen yesterday) + happy guests.

Towers were not in the wrong for preparing for these pre-anticipated guests, and taking preventative measures as they did. I am sure that, if it were to come to light that AT knew in advance of these Travellers visiting the park, and trouble ensued on the day, and AT had not prepared for it, we as a community ourselves wold be the first to both discuss and revolt against it!

TS also reported a story, something which was relevant to the everyday running of the park. I didn't write it, but it's painfully obvious it wasn't a slur, dig, nor attack on any member(s) of the Travelling community at all. It was simply an overview of the days events.

There really isn't anything here to discuss further!


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Simon is absolutely right. Facebook is not an appropriate medium for discussing such complicated, emotive and sensitive issues.

I really hope that the team will discontinue using social media in this way in future, especially on the next 'traveller day', and if these issues must be discussed, it should be in a well-thought-out and well-written piece on the site.

Language is very difficult to get right, and if it's used poorly and flippantly, as it was in those Facebook comments, it can tar the reputation and image of the site, and create a false impression of a xenophobic team.
 
I have 'Thanked' 'Sam' and 'TheMan' several times throughout this thread. I firstly thanked Sam as I thought that he'd made some valid points, which I still stick by. Then 'TheMan' has made good points defending 'Sam' from initial criticism that I don't think was warranted. Let's be honest, the original remarks or reports on the proceedings of the 'travellers day' could have been thought through or executed in a better way. To Joel's credit he has acknowledged that to an extent, which is to be admired.

As I was saying though, and as 'TheMan' has maybe alluded to, I feel that as soon as 'Sam' had dared to criticize anyone on TST who had contributed to the traveller story, it led to a widespread backlash. I would suggest that some people on forums will mostly side with the admin and team as they are familiar with them and maybe some would look to be getting 'in' with that group. Just because more people suggest that you are wrong in this instance, it definitely doesn't mean that you are wrong. I obviously don't have any problems with the team, most of them know me in some way through the tinternet over the years. I've been the victim of questioning the team years ago which resulted in similar support from the general posters on the mods side. Being right is a lonely place ;)
 
Can I jump in with a different idea?
This is slightly off the original point of the topic (and probably even more controversial) but I think if we're going to report Travellers Day's it might be a good idea to report them several days in advance.

Every year we hear stories of people that have visited with young families and the mood has spoilt their day. Maybe it is because of the Travellers themselves or because of the tightened security, either way we know these days have caused problems.

As we also know when this happens (Easter Sunday and the First Sunday of Scarefest) I feel announcing this information in advance would be a friendly piece of advice to other guests. Maybe not as a news article but as a message in the Theme Park info box or somewhere like that. It’s no different to warning people when there’s a Naturist event at the hotels.

It just seems much better in my opinion to treat Travellers Days not as a post-mortem but like any other event so that people can chose if they want to be there on that day or not.
 
Why not make them wear a little label with the word 'GYPSY' on it as well, so middle-class families know who to tut at and disapprove of when on park? :)
 
Sam, you arent being attacked, at all. Like others have said, you make controversial posts on a regular basis and I happen to dis-agree with the majority of your opinions on these topics and think the majority of your reasoning is utter tripe. Hopefully being a liberal thinking person like yourself you wont take it as an attack, its just my opinion which I have tried, where relevant, to support with rhyme and reason.

I dont think anything derogatory was written, by the TS team having re-read all the posts.

I think what was written was very honest, straight and to the point. The fact that this is a highly managed day for the park, the security staff, the police, the management and all others involved should suggest to you the problems the park have encountered in the past and are trying to deal with a couple of times a year.

But of course like you say, you saw "bits" of incidents, but if that is the case, what about all the incidents you "didnt" see or because you didnt see them I guess they didnt happen...

I still cant believe you are picking holes with the words" were expecting" and "done their best to prepare for". Alton Towers were expecting a large group of people on park who as a collective have caused trouble in the past, and im afraid if you dont like people being tarred with the same brush then boo bloody hoo. It happens, every day, you cant stop it and never will. It happens to football fans, political activists, environmental activists, EDL protesters, religious extremists, student protests all sorts of collective groups of people some with valid reasoning for what their doing and others not. But you have to act as rationally as possible and im afraid, in the sensible world, the only way of doing it as treating them as a collective instead of their individual parts.

And in regards to "done their best to prepare for" : lots of extra security staff, a large police presence, metal detectors, the decision to stop selling alcohol which I imagine makes a tidy profit all shows you the preparation, scale and aforethought that has gone into making an environment safe for everyone. As in guests visiting Alton Towers, everyone.

I know it might be hard to think that a group of people irregardless of who they are individually could cause significant problems for other people but I think you need to perhaps on the next Travelers day spend the time on park not wasting it on the rides, and see what the staff, security staff and police are dealing with. Perhaps speak to them and ask what its been like.

When you are dealing with hundreds maybe thousands of people of course their is only so much you can do so I think the phrase is totally justified.

To steal a phrase off someone else I think a , get a grip and apply logic to what you saying here, the world isnt made out of cotton wool and ice cream and it certainly isnt made out of hate riddled TS news reporters either.

And to clarify im not "siding" with anyone, I post on here once in a blue moon but when I come back and read the dross on this thread I just cant help myself but feel the need to say something.
 
I agree with much of the sentiments above.

I admit, I would not travel with my family on a weekend of heightened security, and information as to this occurrence in an informative, respectful fashion should be welcomed.

I have to say though Ash, I read the posts the were posted as quotations, and Sam most certainly came in for unfair stick on some matters - as now, a good few of us with less connections I believe, have pointed out.

You cannot ignore the history of the events, and there is a duty I believe to report - I most respectfully differ with Sam here (though, in terms of what would be ideal - he is actually correct), and I also take on board certain high members who have indeed been open to the fact that it could have been dealt with better. It is almost like, there are two separate discussions happening simultaneously.

Those who have backed Sam though, are in my opinion, perfectly reasonable in their assertions. When dealing with a public place, with such a mix, occasionally due to the nature of society that is out of control, different measures will need to be in place - but those quotations should be universally vilified and unwelcomed.

There is no excuse for justifying them, I myself have now had one or two quite spiky remarks thrown my way - I'm a big boy, I don't care, but it proves it exists.

Maybe, familiarity is clouding certain views, of how purely an observer would view this discussion?

How is not even considering this as a possibility, helpful?
 
If anyone wants a decent read (who hasn't read this before), this is from TTF in 2007. The park had launched a new initiative of a 'Customer Council' (yeah yeah, my favourite). Anyway, this initiative was supposed to draw members of the public into a council to be held at the Towers where they would give advice on a good way to move the park forward in certain respects. It was put across that everyone on all forums and wider could apply and would have an equal chance of being a representative. How surprising when the moderators and team of the Alton Towers forum communities landed the roles (along with a couple of token others). This wouldn't have been a way of the Towers subconsciously controlling the forums at all would it? I was obviously less than popular for suggesting such a thing:

http://forum.towerstimes.co.uk/alton-to ... uncil/150/

P.S - Look out for the good jokes where people on the 'council' tried to save everyones feelings by suggesting that they would get another chance year on year to apply. It's great entertainment!


This is just an example of how people on forums etc will follow the admin.
 
I think its unfair to assume that people are just following admins here for the sake of it. There is no gain whatsoever in doing so, and I personally think no better of anyone clicking thanks to a post or not - its clear there is a divided opinion from the rather broad subject of travellers, right down to the wording of our article and its title.

It is also clear that some people are very passionate about the subject, both for and against, and that has come across also.

I'd rather hope that Sam doesn't feel like this is some attempt to bully - I welcomed his (and Satch's) thoughts about the matter, and obviously I and others will add opinion, debate and reply on the matter, but it really is just strong opinions (and sometimes raw opinions) being put out rather than 'bullying'. As has already been said - if it is a strongly opinionated matter is being discussed, it is easy to feel victimised for holding such a strong opinion.

I think from a team point of view this matter has been debated thoroughly enough, and we have accepted that our choice of language in the title and the comment on Facebook could be worded better that didn't lead a thought of prejudice in a readers mind.

The article we concluded we were right to publish, and hence why it remains. It would only perhaps serve further confusion to edit it now, nonetheless had we felt it was a "full on" mistake we would have retracted or edited it further, but instead we have taken lessons from it.

As such I don't really see the need to progress this discussion any further as I would hope it addresses both Sam and Satch's issue, be it to their complete satisfaction or not.

Obviously we'd rather not stifle or stem discussion, both here or on any of our outlets, but if you are going to add further, please bear the above in mind already, and there really isn't any need to add further fuel to the debate fire, certainly from our perspective and doings anyway :)
 
I personally think that reporting on the security on what been dubbed 'travellers day' is a hard one. The facts need to be put across, but in a way that cant be read as Xenophobia.
This topic has given food for thought to many people here.

To put some of this into context. I was chatting with a member of this community from the long standing camp local to me, where the elders keep the stand of, respect other until they are disrespectful to you.

Although the comments cant be directly quoted. he was on the park, and told of his horror at the behaviour of some other groups of his community, that gave them all a bad name. And he was glad there was extra staff there to try and keep the feral members in check.

I think it go to show, like all other ethnic group, you have the good and the bad.

Shame that we only hear about the bad.
 
delta79 said:
Although the comments cant be directly quoted. he was on the park, and told of his horror at the behaviour of some other groups of his community, that gave them all a bad name. And he was glad there was extra staff there to try and keep the feral members in check.

I think it go to show, like all other ethnic group, you have the good and the bad.

Shame that we only hear about the bad.
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Well said, although you have done your best to hopefully appease that somewhat. It also, proves a point Sam made about how a perception can actually alter a behaviour, before it has happened.

It is the same as calling anyone who lives on a Council estate a "Chav"

Or indeed, anyone blessed with riches and wealth a posh tw...anyway. moving on ;D

Far more calm, measured and reasonable discussions taking place now, good to see - and, for the most part anyway, a fantastic debate! If what arises, is a more balanced perspective, that can only be great for the forum, its present and future members.

So many members in fact, it could be classed as a mass, no, I can't say it ;D
 
Just on a side note - alcohol was not banned from the Park specifically due to the Travellers on Sunday, it's actually banned every Sunday until the end of the season, as AT work to push their resort as a 'Family' one.


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T said:
Just on a side note - alcohol was not banned from the Park specifically due to the Travellers on Sunday, it's actually banned every Sunday until the end of the season, as AT work to push their resort as a 'Family' one.


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The not selling it every Sunday was, I believe, due to the resort being unsure which Sunday this would take place. :)
 
Just gonna point something else out; whoever swapped the word "Travellers" for "the Jews", I find that extremely disrespectful. By saying that you are incinuating that the TowersStreet posts were made by people with the same idealogy as Nazis. Not wise. That's derogatory in itself. Let's be honest; explaining extra security precautions is hardly the same as the extreme persecution of the Jewish people throughout history.
 
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