Traveller's Day

[BigAl]

I just wonder if TS would have reported the increase of security at a minority considered more socially acceptable.

Probably. Nothing gets past us enthusiasts!

 

[Sam]

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Alton Towers and everyone here expects them to act like hooligans, and shows them no respect and dignity, the natural reaction of anyone would be "sod it, if they're going to treat us like a bunch of troublemakers then why shouldn't we be?"

Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

 

[Meat Pie]

Thanks Sam. You've very eloquently summarized what I was trying to say in my three paragraph post into two sentences.

 

[TheMan]

The references to "JEWS" confused me also, I had no idea that the traveling community was predominantly of Jewish descent?

Now me, I associate the Jewish community with that of Kosher food, Rabi's, The Torah, The Kabbalah and Hebrew.

Also of note, is that there are apparently an estimated 1.5million Jews across the whole of Europe, so I find it more than a little odd to hear of them referenced as the traveling community in the way the FB posts did.

I am NOT Jewish, or prejudiced, or biased in anyway on this issue. AS I stated before, simply an observer with no vested interest.

 

[Dave]

A fail to see how the plain fact anti social behaviour increases dramatically on Traveller days has nothing to do with the traveller community. Why have seen it on park and Sam yesterday on park you had the same sentiments as the article, either you have changed your opinion or you think it's wrong to write about things that happen because it associates with a social group.

However and I say this sincerely we do not condone the idea that because someone disgrees with something we do means they should leave. People are entitled to aview and to express it. I personally strongly disagree with a running joke made on a certain dark ride over the weekend and think its very insensitive but I'm not going to stop going on meets.

 

[Jonathan]

I believe the reference to Jews was made to see what the reaction of people would have been if it were Jews who had been involved in the anti-social behaviour instead of travellers (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[TheMan]

I believe the reference to Jews was made to see what the reaction of people would have been if it were Jews who had been involved in the anti-social behaviour instead of travellers (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

Cheers dude, am multitasking and am not on Facebook - was struggling to get my head around that! ;D

And I agree with Dave in that, there clearly IS an issue with antisocial behaviour increasing when the traveling community visits. Perhaps that is indicative of a different way of life?

My point however, was more that the way the posts were made, Sam was right about. Those posts are really on the dodgy side of good taste, I read through them and cringed.

Interestingly, in my initial post, Sam thanked me for mentioning that I agreed with his stance on the posts, yet in the same post I also suggest that their most certainly was a need to protect the general public's interest.

Sam also makes good sense in terms of how, when you are ostracised by a society in such a fashion, it actually makes things WORSE!

I've been spat on in Thorpe Park, queue jumped numerous times at all of them, and seen various levels of public disorder.

Not ONCE was this by the traveling community. Violence, vileness, disorder etc is rife in ALL communities. The fact is, as it seems to be a larger day out - it certainly creates a more intense situation - however, it would be NO different if a bunch of "Chavs" or "Football Hooligans" descended upon the park en masse in my opinion.

I think this community here, has a responsibility to behave better before it begins concentrating on others, and that involves setting a better example in my opinion. Report, opine, etc - but the posts I saw on that FB page were not acceptable in my opinion.

To my mind, there is actually no doubt that an increase in trouble occurs, but articles and remarks like I read, only serves to exacerbate a situation, not deal with the issue, and I find a bit too much defense of what is actually, quite indefensible taking place - which is disappointing.

Let those without sin and all that jazz....

 

[Sam]

How come when that guy trespassed into the Oblivion tunnel, there was nothing on TowersStreet questioning the unfortunate "trouble and unrest" caused by white people?

Don't remember the news article about that one. Far worse than the zero major incidents that happened yesterday. Where were the calls for extra security then?

"TowersStreet encourages Alton Towers to think about putting measures in place after expected a large proportion of white people to visit the event, who have unfortunately previously created a reputation of trouble and unrest when visiting the park."

 

[BigAl]

The difference there is that it was one man acting alone and not a large group. Also, extra security couldn't be called in because they'd never experienced anything like that and it was completely out of the blue. They can't do much more other than monitor the exit and entrance to Oblivion hole as they're both already fenced-off, and I'm sure that the staff now watch these areas in case such an event should reoccur. Besides all that, Towers Street didn't even exist when that happened, so the site couldn't possibly have reported the incident.

Also, why should skin colour come into this? The colour of your skin doesn't determine how you behave. Here, parts of the travelling community are known for causing a disturbance at Alton Towers so Alton Towers have to take the appropriate measures to ensure that the minority in that group of society don't spoil the day out for the rest and other members of their group. Alton Towers didn't always bring extra security in when travellers visited but have had to do so because of some members etiquette in that particular group. As we all know, it isn't all travellers that cause fuss, but the minority can spoil it for them. It's the same in all walks of life.

People wearing hoodies causing fuss has meant that people wearing a hooded jumper with the hood up can cause other people to feel uneasy when in actual fact that person isn't causing any fuss at all, they might just have cold ears or have it covering some headphones, etc...? It's sad but it's a fact of life that people will stereotype others. Everyone will do it at some point in their life because it's human nature. It isn't always done on purpose or in a malicious way.

Nobody means to be offensive and I'm sure that the team will take extra care in the future regarding issues such as how people behave on park and how that affects others. As for other people commenting on Facebook, Towers Street can't really help what other people say. Everyone will have different opinions on this sort of subject and you can't stop people from voicing them, whether what they have to say is helpful, nice or disrespectful and uncalled for. But Facebook will always be full of these sorts of comments and it's best to just avoid people who say things to upset others. If the comments made by others are so bad, report them and let Facebook deal with the individual, but don't group them in with the TST team as that's no better than viewing all of the travelling community as reckless and anti-social thugs, when it's actually a minority within that group.

 

[Joel]

But the guy who got into Oblivion was a single guest, whereas incidents previous both yesterday and in the past do not appear to be the confines of one persons actions.

Plus the response was not even our will or desire, and was that of the Resorts - I do seriously hope that those concerned about the mistreatment of a community or group by the resort are making their feelings known to them also!

I think every member of the team appreciates the choice of language could be clearer and better particularly the headline (and many things in life that people choose to say or write can always be refined and perfected, so its no admission of a terrible mistake here either), but there was certainly no desire to create or project a prejudice by publishing the article - and yet you all seem to acknowledge that probably wasn't the desired effect.

I don't believe a prejudice is trying to be made in the article either. I quite agree that had the word "travellers" been exchanged for any other minority/majority/group/community it would still have been acceptable to publish. Gays on "gay day"? Yup. Would still agree with it - if there was a mass visit of X community on Y day, be it official or not, with a sharp increase of misdemeanour and incidents, its going to be linked to them - and there is no way to report that without referring to an increase of X type visitor.

It just wouldn't make any sense written as:

The measures were in place after Alton Towers expected a large proportion of unruly guests to visit the event, who have unfortunately previously created a reputation of trouble and unrest when visiting the park.

However, despite the concerns and fears of many visitors, the day has so far gone without any major issues as have been seen in the past, and many have praised the resort for their response and the presence of the additional security staff offering reassurance to all.

We never said in the article by the way that every {X} community member caused trouble, and in fact, published quite the opposite that there was very little trouble compared to previous events which have been very different and created the atmosphere and feeling towards the community, from the staff to guests and even this community (back in the days of TT).

If anything I would be inclined to say this actually was in somewhat support of the travellers as we clearly promoted that the day was pretty smooth - which would hopefully allay people's 'postconceptions' that travellers can be trouble on park based on their past experiences of them - of which there are many many people (TT/TS current members included) who have those very conceptions!

So in short, I still believe the article is firmly correct and right to publish. There perhaps could be a better title to it, and I can understand how the comments around it could be conceived as prejudice despite their intention not be.

 

[TheMan]

Thorny subject this one, really glad I got involved! ;D

It is, in fairness, hard for me to tell whom posted that are members, and whom posted that are not - as I absolutely detest Facebook!

If I have one prejudice, it's probably that ;D

For me though, if there are any members who posted some of the more inflammatory, judgmental remarks on that FB page, I'd politely suggest that you reconsider your attitudes in public, as what you say has a direct affect on how any problems are perceived and dealt with in future.

So, you want it to get better, or worse? Part of the problem, or solution?

I find the behaviour of individuals from ALL walks of life, distasteful - and, as a Live and let Live kinda guy, feel that anyone whom encroaches on another persons freedom to enjoy life peacefully by forcing their ways upon them, is a disgrace, and has no rights to do so.

Be they travelers, politicians, or indeed bankers. In fact, I know the order which I believe hold disregard for other humans - and travelers are not top of that list!

From what I hear, I have to say I feel the Tower's did their best to AVOID problems or issues, as a deterrent for all whom may consider attempting to ruin others days out. I applaud the towers for this over all.

I still think though, there is some serious glossing over some rather indefensible opinions going on here, and I understand Sam's points entirely - and I find he made them quite reasonably! Worth pointing out, we are presently disagreeing on a subject matter entirely differently on another board, so it is with NO bias that I feel he has been given a bit of unfair grief here!

 

[Ash]

First things first:


If it walk, talks and shits like a duck, then more than likely, its a duck.

With that in mind...

Police presence increases whenever football fans go to away matches they are instructed where to go, for their safety and everyone elses. Just because they wear a football shirt, Some people get tarred with the same brush. It happens. Same applies here, look at the actions of those involved.

Alton Towers improved their response and took precautions to deal with possible events which they are well within their rights to based on past events. They were balanced, thorough and well thought out.

I really think some of you need try and have a bit of perspective on things sometimes, yes Sam and Satch, im talking to you.

The TS article seemed perfectly fair, I think some are making an issue where there isnt one.

How about we change the topic title to "Enthusiast Day"....a minority, who occasionally does stupid things and could require different treatment to others, no?

Bloody nora

 

[Dave]

How come when that guy trespassed into the Oblivion tunnel, there was nothing on TowersStreet questioning the unfortunate "trouble and unrest" caused by white people?

The man who trespassed into Oblivion wasn't white actually, but because he was an individual and his social background wasn't relevant no one made comment on that quite rightly. HOWEVER the twice yearly link between travellers days and anti-social behaviour is related to the specified social group. Derogatory terms where not used and only facts where published as seen by the group yesterday.

To say we can't report it seems to be using a very flimsy PC argument to restrict freedom of speech.

 

[James]

How about we change the topic title to "Enthusiast Day"....a minority, who occasionally does stupid things and could require different treatment to others, no?

I was tempted to say something similar to that earlier but kept it to myself.

Indeed though. I honestly don't see the issue here apart from people picking up on things that could have not been written much differently.

TowersStreet reports the latest news from Alton Towers - and that's what we've done. The article does not imply any personal feelings at all. Plus, all news articles are read by several team members before being published, so we can iron things out or agree that we're happy with it and yesterday a few team members read over the article and thought it was perfectly suitable. Which it was. It's only the title that could have been different, the content itself suits fine however.

In my own personal opinion I think this is just nitpicking for the sake of nitpicking.

 

[TheMan]

Can I point out here, for the avoidance of doubt, I am referring to the quoted responses.

There has been a sensible admission, that a more suitable title could have been used - less, emotive shall we say.

I also believe, that some of you have most certainly treated Sam unfairly here. I think his points are valid, as a wider implication to society, are relevant, and in idealistic terms - are most certainly truisms.

I still stand by if any of those comments were made by members here, they should be discouraged on the FB pages (not that I care ALL that much, as I don't like it)

What I see, in many of these responses however, is a focus on one or two certain aspects, that suit those particular points, and a lack of acknowledgement of those more unsavoury aspects that the article ATTRACTED by its very nature.

Those people, on the FB page, responded by the very nature OF the article.

Early reactions also showed more truth and depth of feeling.

I do NOT disagree, there has been trouble in the past, that a specific demographic has perpetrated such at times, and that Towers took very sensible precautions to remedy this, and prevent further detraction or ramifications for the general visiting public.

Now, in my opinion, it is the forums turn to acknowledge that there IS a degree of glossing over here, and to try and foster a more socially accepting and morally neutral perspective.

Remember, I am COMPLETELY UNBIASED, and reading only the words on page with no emotional ties - are you interested in a relative outsiders opinion, calling it as I see it?

 

[Dylan]

This topic makes me a bit uncomfortable.
Firstly, if it wasn't meant to be a topic to stir debate, perhaps it could have been a PM to the team. It seems rather unfair to practically suggest that team members / peers / friends are making racist statements in a very public fashion?

On to the subject matter. I read the post on Facebook and found no issue with it personally. Yes, it would seem that the day passed with minimal fuss and trouble. Perhaps it would have done with or without the additional security features. We will never know. I do know though that many of these particular days in the past have seen lots of trouble, and caused distress to people that I know who have been present.

It's not right that an entire community are labelled as trouble makers and in the past I have seen certain posts and comments which have been quite offensive. But not from the team.

Interestingly, I was at Thorpe Park yesterday. There were a large number of guests from the traveller community on park. There was no additional security presence on park. There were no systems put in place by management to control issued if they were to arise.

I waited over an hour to get into the park after 2pm due to the sheer number of guests pushing in front of me at the Advanced ticket collection points (there were approx 30 people ahead of me when I joined the queue). Probably 50+ more pushed in. Constantly. But hey, there was no need for security to be on hand.

Two or three times in the park I was shoved past by large groups. Could have happened any day I guess?

Reports of people refusing to get off coaster trains in the station, having to get security to deal with it. Probably happens all the time.

Whilst there is no need for name calling and potential racist outbursts on public forums, I don't think any of us are naive enough to think that these particular days should just go ahead with out additional security measures from the park. And when there are additional security measures for a particular reason, surely this is news worth mentioning?

 

[TheMan]

I find Dylan, again as an impartial bystander - whom has decided to share his opinions at face value, that the issues I raised there are distorted in favour of presenting a different view.

Sam hasn't posted for a little while, I have.

I think Sam was treated unfairly, I feel the posts that were QUOTED as having originated from the TST Facebook page (once again, to be clear, I've not got enough FB experience to qualify those) were certainly not discouraged. I did manage to read an earlier comment on the page, which I felt came across as quite defensive, as the entire subject matter has right from the off.

You have all experienced this, and may well have strong emotive views upon this day. I have not. I am not JUDGING anyone for this by the way, ones experiences are personal.

What I am doing, is telling you how it comes across to an "outsider", in a unbiased, fair and honest prose.

That may not make comfortable reading for you, but neither did those quotes for anyone of a neutral standpoint. I also, most definitely stand by the fact that I feel Sam has been given a bit too much grief on these pages, and once again, we're in disagreement on other matters on a different subject entirely, that does not mean we should not show each other a modicum of respect!

I'm not entirely fussed, what people think of me, hence my avatar - been around the block enough to know better, however I do care believe it or not how this forum is perceived and the enjoyment it brings to others with similar interests.

Once again, I'm giving you an opinion you will rarely get - that of a relative outsider, looking in, totally unbiased and just letting you know how it could be interpreted.

I cannot vouch who your friends, peers and as I mentioned even members are - but I know what I read on those quotes, and if they're from people here, then that reflects on the nature of a site.

I also, once again, say that I feel what the Tower's did was RIGHT - as I have said MULTIPLE times now. My issue was, and still remains first off - Sam's treatment here, and the quotes that were brought about by the nature of the article. They are very definite, very obvious facts, and ones that this forum (unlike the issues the Towers faced) CAN deal with, if they so choose...

 

[Sam]

My original post was extremely mild, fair and balanced.

Once again, I seem to be attacked (particularly by Ash) for the terrible crime of pointing out that it might not be a good idea to write derogatory things about a racial group. I am by far the most bullied person on this forum.

Joel has acknowledged that the way the article, and particularly the Facebook comments using the official TS account, were written was poorly thought out, a bit unprofessional and could have been worded a lot better. I think the rest of the team secretly know this but don't want to admit it. Joel even said "I think every member of the team appreciates the choice of language could be clearer and better."

Just hold your hands up when you made a mistake.

 

[Islander]

Without at this time commenting on this debate at all...

...I can appreciate both sides of this debate...

I'm completely neutral here guys...

My honest, UNBIASED, assessment...

I am NOT ... prejudiced, or biased in anyway on this issue. AS I stated before, simply an observer with no vested interest.

...so it is with NO bias that I feel he has been given a bit of unfair grief here!

Remember, I am COMPLETELY UNBIASED, and reading only the words on page with no emotional ties...

...again as an impartial bystander - whom has decided to share his opinions at face value...

What I am doing, is telling you how it comes across to an "outsider", in a unbiased, fair and honest prose.

Once again, I'm giving you an opinion you will rarely get - that of a relative outsider, looking in, totally unbiased and just letting you know how it could be interpreted.

...I have to question the neutrality/unbiased nature of someone who makes a point of stating at least nine separate times that they are indeed neutral and unbiased.

:-\

 

[Dave]

I think you have over extended the level to which Joel stated the article was wrong. If you think you are bullied on the forum you should contact the team as you haven't stated this previously.