Travellers

[Dave]

I am not keen on generalisation of groups but every day I have been on resort when large groups of travellers have been on park and its very intimidating. Knowing staff who work on park they speak of getting spat on and physically and verbally assaulted and on the late Scarefest evening they congregate at the front of the towers and it is scary.

It causes a major conflict between my general belief you shouldn't label and the obvious social intimidation and increase in criminal activity that occurs on those days that I can't solve.

 

[Henry]

My cousin (he works there) was telling me about the traveller weekends, he said that they book rooms for one person and then bring in extra mattresses and make each room sleep about 12 people, apparently they also steal everything, but it doesn't matter because Alton towers have all their credit card details, so they are charged!

Yeah, because the staff and the doorman at the hotel wouldn't notice people sneaking extra mattresses in. :

My cousin (who also works there) says everything you've just said isn't true.

I may be wrong but please dont shoot the messenger, its just what my cousin said, not me.

 

[GaryH]

They way some people talk about Travellers on here is as if they aren't even human beings and universally 'chaos' causers. I find that very concerning to say the least.

It's one thing to recognise a negative behavioural trend in a section of society, study it's origin and come up with approaches to work towards a harmonious solution. It's quite another to avoid people from these cultures and make broad generalising statements, which perpetuates the problem of people acting the way that their country's culture and media tells them that they do. If people went round acting as though I was some kind of barbarian when they don't even know me, I would probably get sick of society refusing to respect me, no matter how I behaved, so I might as well start behaving like a barbarian.

I've heard homophobes use pretty much the same language used in this topic about gay pride marches 'causing chaos' and was as disgusted with the insinuation with that as I am with this. It seems that the Traveller is the acceptable minority to bully.

They do cause chaos - its a FACT. Alton Towers is not a pleasant place to go when the travellers are having their weekends up there - Alton know this given the bad reviews on TripAdvisor from families who have had their weekends wrecked by abusive behaviour, physical attacks, noise in the hotels, queue jumping, underage drinking, threats, need I go on? I've been there on several occasions when its been traveller weekends and its not a pleasant atmosphere.

Alton have to spend a lot of money for extra security including metal detectors at the entrances. Do you want to therefore, suggest Alton are being bullies for stereotyping these people in this way. What a stupid thing to say - if they KNOW the travellers cause chaos when they go to the park they will address it in the same way that if police know a certain type of person is going to commit a crime they will be more prone to stopping and searching them. Nothing wrong with identifying a group of people if it is proved they are troublemakers and this can be addressed.

If they want to go to Alton, that's their choice - as it is my choice to not want to go to Alton the same time as them, especially when I'm spending just under £400 to stay in the hotel and don't want my entire weekend spoilt by these disrespectful people who like to run amok and think they are the only ones there.

Broad generalising statement? No, its just general knowledge - well proven general knowledge - just ask anyone who works at Alton Towers and has had to put up with traveller behaviour.

 

[BigDave]

Oh trust me, sneaking mattresses in is nothing. The stuff they find on park when they are there still shocks me and thats after 5 years of working there. They probably fold up small travel mattresses into their suitcases. After finding knives, knuckle dusters and the likes before, nothing would surprise me. We have to deal with them on a regular basis now Im at Tesco. I cannot say everyone single one of them cause trouble, but we have a fair few that do.

I guess its a case of several that are fine and then a few that spoil it and give them a bad name, but it certain seems to be that more issues happen when they are around.

 

[Meat Pie]

They way some people talk about Travellers on here is as if they aren't even human beings and universally 'chaos' causers. I find that very concerning to say the least.

It's one thing to recognise a negative behavioural trend in a section of society, study it's origin and come up with approaches to work towards a harmonious solution. It's quite another to avoid people from these cultures and make broad generalising statements, which perpetuates the problem of people acting the way that their country's culture and media tells them that they do. If people went round acting as though I was some kind of barbarian when they don't even know me, I would probably get sick of society refusing to respect me, no matter how I behaved, so I might as well start behaving like a barbarian.

I've heard homophobes use pretty much the same language used in this topic about gay pride marches 'causing chaos' and was as disgusted with the insinuation with that as I am with this. It seems that the Traveller is the acceptable minority to bully.

They do cause chaos - its a FACT. Alton Towers is not a pleasant place to go when the travellers are having their weekends up there - Alton know this given the bad reviews on TripAdvisor from families who have had their weekends wrecked by abusive behaviour, physical attacks, noise in the hotels, queue jumping, underage drinking, threats, need I go on? I've been there on several occasions when its been traveller weekends and its not a pleasant atmosphere.

Alton have to spend a lot of money for extra security including metal detectors at the entrances. Do you want to therefore, suggest Alton are being bullies for stereotyping these people in this way. What a stupid thing to say - if they KNOW the travellers cause chaos when they go to the park they will address it in the same way that if police know a certain type of person is going to commit a crime they will be more prone to stopping and searching them. Nothing wrong with identifying a group of people if it is proved they are troublemakers and this can be addressed.

If they want to go to Alton, that's their choice - as it is my choice to not want to go to Alton the same time as them, especially when I'm spending just under £400 to stay in the hotel and don't want my entire weekend spoilt by these disrespectful people who like to run amok and think they are the only ones there.

Broad generalising statement? No, its just general knowledge - well proven general knowledge - just ask anyone who works at Alton Towers and has had to put up with traveller behaviour.

All Travellers do not cause chaos. That is not a 'FACT'. That is is a generalisation. I agree that there are negative behavioural trends in that culture and there needs to be work towards reforming that. But that can never ever happen if people make generalisations that continue to perpetuate the problem.

You say it's general knowledge? It used be considered general knowledge that Jews are greedy people obsessed with money. That's not knowledge. That's absolute nonsense. You really don't think it outrageous to label a whole section of society as engaging in anti-social behaviour? Really? In 2013? You need to spend a long time considering what the implications of your thoughts really mean.

I live close to a Traveller camp, and yes there are some serious negative behavioural trends, but it won't make life better by creating a 'them and us' division which worsens the situation. I recently met some travellers that are model upstanding members of the local community. They however are subject to constant abuse from people like you who want to put cultural groups into easily labelled boxes, so that your mind doesn't have to think or make individual judgements about individuals. Instead, you can feel secure and safe in the knowledge that they are 'bad guys'.

 

[Dave]

The problem of the left/ right divide... The right like to label and ignore the true nature, the left like to ignore the trend so avoid the solution.

There needs to be an acknowledgement that the Traveller community has some social problems that have to be addressed as it causes problems for the rest of society (and their community too) but you can't just bunch the whole lot into one little sub-section and throw them to the wolves so to speak.

My big issue with the traveller community is they split themselves from society and where ever i have seen negative social out-comes based on race, it has always had a certain level of self segregation supported by everyone else. Ghetto's are a terrible thing!

HOWEVER

Stop with the personal attacking language, it isn't a good method of debate and sends these topics into a flame war!

 

[Meat Pie]

I completely agree with you about the segregation Dave. There is a 'them and us' mindset built into the Traveller culture also, which is a big part of the problem. It creates a 'them and us' response from the wider society, and then we end up with two warring factions who don't feel that they have any responsibility to each other.

I haven't got all the answers on how to deal with this problem, but I do know that taking the option to segregate from Travellers like this Towers example, where 'Traveller days' are made into a big issue as to actively ward everyone else away is exacerbating the problem.

On a national/societal level, I would suggest making and enforcing school attendance of children from the travelling community until they are 16/18 would be a good measure in tackling segregation, rather than allowing home-schooling.

 

[Dave]

But the segregation at Towers is self perpetuating, when travellers amass at Towers its a horrible atmosphere. That further forces the opinion on non-travellers to a general dislike of the community. There needs to be a certain level of ownership from the travelling community to deal with that negative part of their influence on a situation and then the rest of society needs to give them the chance to intergrate.

It's one of the great conflicts of my generally left-leaning opinions that when i go to Towers when travellers are attending in high numbers i truely hate the atmosphere. It's nothing if not scary and intimidating but ignoring travellers is not the solution but neither can we ignore their responsibility in changing things as well.

 

[Meat Pie]

The problem is Dave, it's not just one side's responsibility. If you want to live in a world where the negative behavioural trend changes, it's going to have to take both sides to swallow their misgivings, endure some of the hardship, and accept that what they do has an effect in making cultural relations worse.

It is likely, that once you change wider society's treatment of the issue, combined with focused and progressive social programmes, the behavioural trends in the travelling community will change.

But, again it needs to be reiterated that these behavioural trends are not intrinsic to all Travellers. That would be an absurd and disturbing generalisation.

 

[AstroDan]

I am only concerned with what takes place at Alton Towers.

Large gatherings and underage girls dressed inappropriately for a family environment.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Earthwürm]

After having worked in two theme parks that have these 'traveller days', I'd happily say the vast majority were there to cause trouble, some of the abuse staff were subjected to was simply disgusting. Reasons aside, and I'm sure there are many, I think it's fair for someone who has experienced that to want to avoid that section of society. Sometimes personal safety and comfort comes before the benefit of the doubt.

The Easter weekend when I was at Towers we were told not to cross the park at the end of the day to avoid any incidents, by the time we got to the front gate traffic was held up by armed police. The scarefest weekend wasn't so bad but I did find shotgun cartridges in a Skyride godola when garaging the next morning.

I am aware not all Travellers are like this, and I have met some lovely people from the travelling community, I just think its fair for people to not want to take that chance when the odds are really against them.

 

[GaryH]

My own personal opinions (and from observations) which I am entitled to are that :

1) Alton isnt a nice place during traveller weekends
2) The place is hardly a family resort when you have large groups of youths hanging around being abusive and groups of girls walking around in less clothing that you'd see on a night out
3) There is a rise in thefts and crime on the resort, hence the extra security precautions (metal detectors, security staff etc)
4) There are complaints from people staying in the hotels about noise and distrurbances
5) There are complaints from the general public about events that have taken place in the daytime on the theme park
6) There is a lack of respect for anyone or anything else - i.e. jumping onto rides by storming the exit
7) Any outlets selling alcohol are closed to try and prevent further trouble (such as the courtyard tavern)

These are facts. Ask anyone who has been or anyone who works there.

I'm not talking about the entire traveller population here, i'm talking about the ones in particular who go to Alton Towers and cause problems. While many of them are well behaved, unfortunately, a large number of them are not.

And if I choose to ask when traveller weekend is so I can avoid it, and not risk wasting £400 of my own money on an unenjoyable weekend because of the large traveller groups attending then that it my choice too.

The funniest thing of all is that if Traveller's didnt want to be tarred with the same brush, all they have to do is behave themselves. Simples.

Meat Pie - you seem to have considered my initial question a generalisation that I am calling ALL travellers trouble makers. I havent said that and I dont believe all of them are. However, I am asking about a weekend in Alton Towers, where it is known a large group people from the traveller community do attend, and do cause problems. Thats all. Your reading way too much into this and getting way to serious over what I believe to have been a perfectly legit and reasonable question.

 

[DiogoJ42]

If I know there is a large international game on at Wembley, I will do my best to avoid using the Metropolitan line to get in to town, because I don't like being surrounded by drunken, shouting yobs on my way to work. No one calls that offensive.

It's not that people don't want to visit when "travellers" are there, it's that we don't want to visit when agressive criminals take over the place. Race has nothing to do with it. They could be Benedictine monks for all I care, but if they behave as I have seen in the past, I don't want to be on park on days that I know they will be there.

 

[Fredward]

I have no interest in being politically correct. I've been to Towers twice on traveller days, both times its been an unpleasant experience, no physical violence or threats against me, but the amount of estops on the mazes, the police effort, the hanging around the towers in a massive group (about 300 plus probably) with the occasional few breaking into fights in said group.

Fact, when travellers are at Alton Towers it becomes a miserable place.

Fact, it may be the minority of the visitors that cause physical violence, but its the massive hoard behind them that causes the intimidation.

Everyone hates being roped into a stereotype, but since we don't know the individuals personally, its easier to blame the stereotype and we are responsible for that image.

Alton Towers is a miserable place on travellers day. There's only one variable that changes that day that's different from any other.

 

[Tuggerz]

It says a lot about an Attraction when you walk through the gates and have your bag checked while members of the Police Force watch you like hawks, It doesn't give off a warm magical atmosphere.

At the end of the day, it only reflects badly on the park, I'm not one to discriminate towards Travelers, because I've had quite a few good conversations with them when I've worked there and they're generally well behaved and polite, There is however a large majority of 'Youths' who like to impress the girls and act quite disrespectful to the place around them, However, have a word with one of the Older Gents in their group and you'll get to see the kid be clipped around the ear.

In another side of the argument, Would we be so angry if a 'Standard' Non Traveller started to give off bad impressions? Or... What if a Large Group of Middle Class friends decided to all meet up at Towers together and stand in quite noticeably large groups around the entrances to attractions. Would we be so scared then?

 

[GaryH]

Whether it was a large group of rowdy middle class people, OAP's, gays, lesbians, disabled, whatever, i'm not at all bothered about who it is or what class of society they come from but ultimately people should behave and respect other people around them wherever they are.

Lets say it wasnt a traveller weekend, but a weekend where all the rich bankers go and get drunk, try and impress the ladies, and run around shouting "loadz ah monah" while waving £50 notes in their hands while being generally obnoxious and rude - I wouldnt want to visit that weekend either!!!!!!!

The fact is its not because its "travellers" we are talking about here - it could be anyone, but it is well known that this group of visitors in April do cause problems for others, hence me not wanting to visit during this time.

 

[BigAl]

It says a lot about an Attraction when you walk through the gates and have your bag checked while members of the Police Force watch you like hawks, It doesn't give off a warm magical atmosphere.

Although it's annoying, I wouldn't say it impacts the day very much. There are bag checks at all of the Floridian parks but that certainly didn't detract from their immensity!

 

[GaryH]

^^^ Agree - however, I guess its because you hardly ever see bag checks and metal detectors at Alton Towers - so when you do see them, well, it just makes a bit more aprehensive perhaps?

 

[Earthwürm]

The difference with Floridian parks is their bag checks are performed by very warm and friendly staff, who presumably have much more intimidating back up out of sight. I found the bag checks at Halloween Horror Nights and the police presence there to be quite intimidating and did somewhat detract from the experience. The problem with that event though is they sell alcohol in huge quantities with people upselling it throughout the park and queuelines so the police presence becomes necessary. It's a shame really as the event is amazing and so much effort goes in only to be spoiled by drunken mobs vandalising houses and intimidating families (although of course this isn't a child friendly event and the park advises not to bring children)

 

[mark9]

In another side of the argument, Would we be so angry if a 'Standard' Non Traveller started to give off bad impressions? Or... What if a Large Group of Middle Class friends decided to all meet up at Towers together and stand in quite noticeably large groups around the entrances to attractions. Would we be so scared then?

Aren't you just being stereotypical about the middle class now.. I thought the point was to avoid generalising about groups of people.