Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by GaryH, 9th Jan 2013.
I can't believe we're having the gypsy argument before Easter.
I'm uncomfortable with the idea that I'm somehow unfairly tarring a race by calling out the occasionally irresponsible and innapropriate behaviour of Travellers.
It's not an issue of Travellers as a race, it's an issue of culture. Travellers have a culture somewhat separated from that of the rest of us in the UK, there are some stark cultural differences. I'd be surprised to hear anyone disagree with the claim that Traveller culture, in places, is one which approaches behaviour widely considered unnacceptable with a lighter touch (fighting for example).
I don't believe someone is being discriminatory or displaying prejudice if their claim is backed up with evidence. Prejudice is irrational, unfounded, unexplainable and unjustified. The fact is, the park deal with far more incidents on "Traveller days" than any other day of the year, and the fact they've had to step up security so significantly in recent years demonstrates this. Is it unfair to draw a link between the spike in incidents and the presence of Travellers on park? I don't believe it is. In the same way nobody is a racist for pointing out the statistical fact that Black male youths play a disproportionate role in knife crime. By making such a claim, no one is suggesting that all Travellers are criminals/terrible people, that's far from the truth. To deny though, that there is no link between Travellers and trouble is foolish, and to suggest anyone is demonstrating prejudice towards Travellers for pointing such a link out is unfair.
It's also very difficult not to condemn an entire community on the behaviour of a few of their individuals when there is so little sense of condemnation of this behaviour from within the community.
The point was to bring up the side of the argument that maybe the General Public actually find Enthusiast Meetups quite imposing.
I never said it was, as i said the right like to ignore wider societies responsibility and put everything on the community who is being looked at and the left tend to look at wider societies responsibilities without considering the changes that have to come from within. So change is the responsibility of both parties.
And no it's not every traveller but it is a significant proportion of the community.
And Tuggerz there have been times when groups of enthusiasts have been an imposing group on park, but certainly in the time i have been going on meets if the group gets too rowdy other members tend to speak up.
Although TS meets are not the biggest to attend Alton Towers (the likes of RCCGB, TPR and ECC probably have bigger numbers) we are probably the biggest group that tend to stick together (as those bigger groups tend to split up to go around the park) and i would say 99.9% of the time we go unnoticed by anyone other than staff even when there are 50+ of us.
That's probably true, same with any large group, some may find it intimidating, if they aren't sure what it's for. though the general nature of an enthusiast nature is a lot less intimidating and aggressive, Mainly due to the aggressive nature of the minority in a traveller group and the shear size of the groups, make the whole group much more intimidating.
I'm sure it's just as easy for towers to get the TST (the largest meets of towers fansites) meetup dates as it is for the traveller days. But they don't hire extra security for us. I think it goes to show the difference between the two groups and the trouble they (on the whole) cause.
Scarefest weekend 2011 with 'Travellers' Scum (I too don't care about being "Politically correct") was my only worst day at Towers I've ever had.
Blatant disregard for safety, people with families and not a care in the world who they hurt or what they can destroy. Sub-human scum in my eyes and I feel for Alton during these days a year. There's nothing they can do about it. All they can do is try their best to keep the rest of the guests safe during their visit but many aren't so lucky - namely the staff.
There's a lot of prejudice over migrants who enter this country and yet they rarely do anything wrong. These are home grown British psychopaths that we tolerate easier than those from abroad.
I hate them! and no amount of Channel 4 glossy shine will make me think any less.
I hate these days. No matter how its said, these people ruin the day for others.
Fact. End of.
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I've only ever been once when travellers were there and it wasn't to bad to be honest. I didn't witness any problems myself, but it isn't to say they don't cause problems. Although the heightened security and bag checks isn't welcoming when you are supposed to be at a family orientated park which usually doesn't have that much in the way of visible security or bag checks.
Since I have been an enthusiast (properly in 2005) there has been several topics that have popped up about traveller days on forums that have shown them in a bad light - I tend to avoid said days now just in case. Its sad when people have to plan days around certain problems just because of a small minority causing them.
Better now than afterwards...
I'm sure I'm not the only one who hates seeing these topics appear afterwards because someone has had their day spoilt. Most of us know the exact days this is going to happen long before it does so why should we not tell others?
Just to add a balance to this topic, I thought i add this.
I was at AT on a quiet-ish day in August, When I saw a traveller from my local camp. He was there with this two kids and another one of his family. We where behind them in a queue line (i think it was air) we had no problem. He recognised me, and we ended up chatting and had a pleasant (as it get in a queue line) time.
To be honest, I'm as keen to avoid traveller's day at Alton (as I previously I have) as much as I potentially am to avoid a forum that bandies around the term 'sub-human scum', but I'm just another PC slave of course.
Anyone who unironically describes an ethnic or cultural group 'sub-human scum' is a derranged racist who should feel ashamed of themselves. I generally try to avoid godwins' law, but in a case where someone is expressing the exact view of a nazi, that traveller's are not even human, it's hard not to. Perhaps mein campf will be a delighful read for you spike?
All we ever hear is how awful travellers are and never the abuse that they receive. In my school the term 'gypsy' was used by kids to describe a thief, to describe a lier, and to describe a dirty or scruffy person. Is it any wonder that there is segregation and little respect for the wider culture that holds travellers as sub-humans and that uses them as a derrogatory insult to us 'normal' people?
How about the local my local caravan sites that are always getting spray painted with insults like 'dirty gypsy'. You never see it in the local press, but the moment that a traveller commits a crime, they are all over it. You people who see travellers one dimensionally are blinded by the media world you live in.
And before someone says that the anti-traveller behaviour I have described is a reaction to 'their behaviour', it doesn't matter which 'side' is reacting to what. That mentality ends in blood feuds with continued segregation and continued ant-social behaviour. It's time that people recognised that their precious culture is a massive part of the problem also, and if things are ever going to change, you need to put your ugly prejudices to one side and work towards a reformed relationship between the cultures like inteligent grown ups.
Doesn't seem to matter which topic involves sensitive debate both sides of the argument can't seem to keep things level headed (religion, Teachers and Travellers it matters not).
Please can we keep debates cool, calm and level headed without personal insults. We like that the forum is relatively relaxed and that these topics can happen, as most other forums would delete them on the spot, but if this desolves into another tiring flame war it will be locked.
I havn't seen one angry post in any topic that couldn't have been written without the venom so please excersise that caution. I have left the existing posts as they are (and they are from both sides of the debate) but any further posts that can't debate in a sensible manner will get deleted and as said result in the topic getting locked.
Romany Gipsies are a race. "Travellers" are a culture. Just sayin'
Does it matter? It's having such hatred for a people, that you think they no longer consitute human beings. If it's not racist, it still is Nazi.
As you said yourself mate, Godwin's law... you lose
Coming from you that's a compliment. I'll sleep soundly tonight knowing that the Meatpie's filling is all gristle. :twirly:
And topic locked
Team discussion pending as to whether we delete certain posts and re-open or just keep it locked.
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