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UK politics general discussion

rob666 said:
The Trussel Trust delivered over two million food parcels to desperate people, who had no income at all for food, last year.
A decade ago, they were delivering around forty thousand.
We now have an underclass that is literally starving, by the WHO definition, with no realistic government bale out, just begging from charity.
There are millions of people in this country, young and old, who are going without food on a regular basis, and the food they have is lacking in nutrition.
It is fair to say that there are a couple of million people in this country who are slowly starving, that were managing a few years ago.
You might not want to face that fact, but that is where we stand today.
No hyperbole.
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Not anything like the same as what I was responding to. 🤷‍♂️

Yes there's horrible things happening, although I believe them to be widely overstated by organisations with personal and political interests to be gained, that doesn't take away from a rapidly changing economy hitting people hard. There's a lot of people in genuine need of help.

On the other side though, there'll be plenty of people in those numbers who are putting themselves in this position. My thoughts can't help but be influenced by my experience, and my experience is frequently of people who are completely incapable of budgeting, of spending proportionately on life's necessitates instead of life's luxuries, of not wasting what they are given and then wanting more.

This isn't a problem that needs endless funds thrown at it, it's one that needs far greater targeting in its spend.
 
Comes back to the same thing in most cases though does it not? 10 years of austerity stripping away funding for organisations, charities, mental health provision and so on, that could have stepped in to help people before it reached this level?

And by help I don’t mean just handing out cash. Helping people improving employability skills, with issues such as learning how to budget, with mental health problems and so on.
 
Matt N said:
The issue is; what is the solution to these issues? Presumably the government can’t provide support because the country can’t afford it, so where are we going to get this support from without raising our debt to dangerous levels and effectively bankrupting the country?
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The solution in short? A new government.

I get your point though, the public finances are in a desperate state. But the starter for ten would be to kick out of office the government that's responsible for it all. It's mind blowing that the Tories came to office telling complete and utter lies comparing us to Greece and on the verge of going to the IMF with the begging bowl so that they could push through ideologically driven cuts, yet now the problem is even worse they're expected to be re-elected?

This government has crashed our car but wants our permission to keep the keys. We all know how bad it is. Tory voters know how bad it is. The Tory leadership candidates themselves keep repeating how bad it is (please note though that the tale of woe they spout is normally when questioned about helping stuggling people, but there's loads of money laying around for tax cuts apparently).

I don't know what the solution is, but trusting the perpetrators to come up with it is complete madness.
 
The question is, though; what issue were the Conservative government trying to solve with austerity? They wouldn’t just apply a policy like that for the hell of it, so surely there must have been some issue that led to it being imposed?

And with that in mind, how can we stop it? I’m really not sure what the Tories could do…
EDIT: Sorry @Matt.GC; I never saw your post, which partially addressed my 2nd question.
 
Matt N said:
Out of interest, what EU red tape existed before Brexit?
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The idea is 'red tape' imposed by EU rules, which we had to adhere to to trade with the EU, can now be discarded and we can apply our own simpler rules to certain industries.

The reality is if we want to continue trade we will likely follow the same rules anyway, but we now have to do more to prove compliance on import and export, effectively increasing red rape.
 
We’re not going to bankrupt the country by giving people food to eat. You can’t run a successful economy with a load of malnourished workers. A fitter, healthier workforce is good for business.

Although the Conservative Party tries to present themselves as the party of farmers, entrepreneurs and small businesses, they’re really the party of landlords and investment bankers.
 
Matt.GC said:
The solution in short? A new government.

I get your point though, the public finances are in a desperate state. But the starter for ten would be to kick out of office the government that's responsible for it all. It's mind blowing that the Tories came to office telling complete and utter lies comparing us to Greece and on the verge of going to the IMF with the begging bowl so that they could push through ideologically driven cuts, yet now the problem is even worse they're expected to be re-elected?

This government has crashed our car but wants our permission to keep the keys. We all know how bad it is. Tory voters know how bad it is. The Tory leadership candidates themselves keep repeating how bad it is (please note though that the tale of woe they spout is normally when questioned about helping stuggling people, but there's loads of money laying around for tax cuts apparently).

I don't know what the solution is, but trusting the perpetrators to come up with it is complete madness.
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Thanks for your in-depth reply; it’s much appreciated.

But my question is more; what could a new government do that the Tories can’t do now? They’ll have the same finances, the same budgets, the same pot of money to disperse. With that in mind, what would a new government actually be able to do that the Tories can’t do at the moment? Surely the money going into solving the current issues would have to take money away from a different department, thus not really making any net gains in the “problem solving” department?
 
Matt N said:
The question is, though; what issue were the Conservative government trying to solve with austerity? They wouldn’t just apply a policy like that for the hell of it, so surely there must have been some issue that led to it being imposed?
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A large budget deficit mainly due to a global economic crisis and the economic stimulus that was put in to negate some of its negative effects. Tories love small state, low taxes "I'm all right Jack, but sod you" ideology. Note that in their lust for austerity, they actually painted themselves into a corner, shrank the economy and then had to dust off Alistair Darlings original plan by which time it was already too late.

They would apply a policy like that for the hell of it (many economists said it was stupid at the time and many other countries did not follow us down the rabbit hole) and they did apply a policy like that for the hell of it
 
I don’t know what a different government would do. Keir Starmer’s keeping his cards close to his chest. But a fairer tax system would be a start; inheritance, capital gains, dividends, income from rent… these are the sort of things a kinder, more decent government would look at taxing more. They’d clamp down on tax loopholes. Remember, these aren’t really loopholes, but things that have been deliberately put there, thanks to lobbying.

They’d cut down on privatisation and outsourcing, which has often given the tax payer poor value for money.

They’d end zero hour contracts and put in some proper employment laws, so we’re not having to subsidise bad employers.

They’d regulate the property sector, end the right to buy and put in higher taxes on property’s that are bought as an investment. This would lower rents and give people more disposable income.

They’d sort out the benefits system, including the work capability assessments.

They’d end the marketisation of higher education, and make sure it serves the needs of the country.
 
Matt N said:
The issue is; what is the solution to these issues? Presumably the government can’t provide support because the country can’t afford it, so where are we going to get this support from without raising our debt to dangerous levels and effectively bankrupting the country?
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Increase taxation, in all its types, to pay for enhanced, triple locked, social benefits, for all, not just pensioners.
Increase taxes on fat, sugar, betting and that old chestnut, aviation fuel.
Free school meals for all, state funding of all nurseries...like it pretty much used to be, and increased benefits in school holidays.
That would be a good start.
And Matt, the country could easily afford it, the government chooses not to provide support, because the poor are in very specific regions, and there are no vote gains in solving the underclass poverty issue for the Tories.
 
pluk said:
Not anything like the same as what I was responding to. 🤷‍♂️

Yes there's horrible things happening, although I believe them to be widely overstated by organisations with personal and political interests to be gained, that doesn't take away from a rapidly changing economy hitting people hard. There's a lot of people in genuine need of help.

On the other side though, there'll be plenty of people in those numbers who are putting themselves in this position. My thoughts can't help but be influenced by my experience, and my experience is frequently of people who are completely incapable of budgeting, of spending proportionately on life's necessitates instead of life's luxuries, of not wasting what they are given and then wanting more.

This isn't a problem that needs endless funds thrown at it, it's one that needs far greater targeting in its spend.
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You quoted someone saying that working people were dying of starvation, and that was hyperbole.
I'm stating it is actual fact.
Even working people on working tax credits are repeatedly going without food to feed their children.
You turn to your experience with the "undeserving poor".
I'm saying there is now ten times as many people who are "deserving poor".
Like you, I have many years experience working with both groups.
The new "deserving poor"...many working decent single parent families, now have a direct choice between eat or heat.
The division between haves and have nots in this country gets ever wider.
Thatcher started it, Eton prime ministers haven't wanted to stop it.
 
It certainly is a fact that the life expectancy is now falling in about 8-10% of the UK’s areas – and these are almost exclusively, in fact probably exclusively, the poorest ones. I don’t know how many people are dying where malnutrition is the only cause of death, but it seems reasonable to assume that it’s a contributory factor. It might not be that someone is so malnourished they die from it, but if their immune system is weakened, they might not be able to fight off illness, or keep themselves as warm. Desperate people might also end up eating food that isn’t safe to eat, and they’re likely to be drawn towards the cheapest high calorie foods that clearly lead to long term health problems. Regardless of the language we use, being the government that brings down life expectancies and leads to a big explosion in food banks, isn’t a very good track record.
 
Matt N said:
Thanks for your in-depth reply; it’s much appreciated.

But my question is more; what could a new government do that the Tories can’t do now? They’ll have the same finances, the same budgets, the same pot of money to disperse. With that in mind, what would a new government actually be able to do that the Tories can’t do at the moment? Surely the money going into solving the current issues would have to take money away from a different department, thus not really making any net gains in the “problem solving” department?
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It's not a full answer to the question, but you have to bear in mind that the current government have presided over some colossal wastes of money, such as reported losses of £9 Billion on undelivered/unusable PPE and a significant amount of the £37 billion pumped into Test and Trace.

Whilst it is arguable that a different government might have made the same decisions, it would be reasonable to assume a slightly more competent administration might have been more financially astute, so at this point may well have had billions of extra funding to tackle some of the issues that the country is now facing.

Obviously this is looking at past decisions, but it is fair to assume that based on past 'mistakes', the current lot would continue to waste large amounts of money if left in charge.
 
Matt N said:
Thanks for your in-depth reply; it’s much appreciated.

But my question is more; what could a new government do that the Tories can’t do now? They’ll have the same finances, the same budgets, the same pot of money to disperse. With that in mind, what would a new government actually be able to do that the Tories can’t do at the moment? Surely the money going into solving the current issues would have to take money away from a different department, thus not really making any net gains in the “problem solving” department?
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The Tories will deal with this by cutting taxes like corporation tax and possibly even income tax whilst also cutting public services. Check back with me in a year or 2 and I bet you a tenner this would have happened.

What can be done? Well my view as none of us here are economists:

Raise capital gains and inheritance tax immediately.

Means test all pensioner benefits, increasing benefits to the poorest pensioners in the process.

A new Duty applied to super luxury goods such as expensive jewellery and sports cars.

A new level of Super Stamp Duty for homes a million quid or over in London, 500k elsewhere.

Non Dom status abolished. Pay your taxes or sod off.

Much higher duty on booze retailed for consumption off the premises.

Tax incentives for businesses employing 16 year olds, earning living wage in a quality apprenticeship scheme.

Tuition fees based on skill needs of the country.

Compulsory purchase of land developers sit on for affordable housing.

And end to private schools tax exemptions.

It's not a case of what the Tories can't do it's case of what they want to do. So to go back to my point, it comes down to ideology and trust. Would you trust the party who got us in to this state to get us out of it? Would you trust a party that has a history of dealing with these issues by cutting services whilst simultaneously lowering taxes for the rich? You don't even have to look as far back as the 1980's for this, Cameron and Osbourne were busy doing these things as soon as they assumed office.
 
Some demographics were already having to choose between food and heating last year. That will be exacerbated this year.

About 3 days worth of food for me and wife atm has gone up to about £60. Could cut down on some things but then you end up eating lower quality foods (I.e. fresh to frozen) or unhealthier foods. Petrol has similarly shot up about £20 for a full tank, and I can feel safer in that I work from home more regularly now, which saves petrol. Bear in mind I'm the only one earning because of wife being on disability benefits.

Beyond this, her sister is a single mum with 3 kids (mid divorce, dad isn't particularly helpful even if kind of around purely to keep some semblance for the kids). These are the people who are really struggling, because they need to work (lol benefits system is broken) but also care for their kids. Kids need entertainment as much as feeding, so those old stories of "how can they be poor they have flat screen tvs" have now moved onto "if you stop using Netflix you can afford a house". There's a complete disassociation to those struggling (a recent survey I believe had some believe that their £80k annual salary was the UK average for example) and after the years where those on benefits were the whipping people of the government there's such a loom down upon them. Especially when you factor in that the changes to the likes of Universal Credit from our incumbent (for 12 years) government are almost abusive.

But apparently its "woke" to have empathy these days. And those campaigning to lead are more invested in some transphobic/anti-woke agenda rather than fix the actual problems that the country are facing.
 
So, the most "centerist" candidate in the race, Tom Togandhat has been eliminated. This leaves us at the hands of:

Right wing nut job Kemi Badenoch who had to experience today's outside heat to admit that the government must meet it's Net Zero LEGAL remit by 2050, massively changing her mind on what she said last night.

Penny "Boredant", the Brexiteer who stood next to odious people like Priti Patel and Boris Johnson in front of a bus livered with a blatant lie who has ..... no policies whatsoever and apparently has shirked from work for the last few months.

Lizzzzzzzzzzz........ Truss, the dullest person imaginable (she even alluded to this herself). A former Lib Dem Remainer - who is backed by more hard right Brexiteers than you can shake a poor persons stick at. Promising the world but who knows what she actually stands for other than coming across as miserable and inconsistent.

And Rishi Rich. The multi millionaire who doesn't know how to fill a car with petrol, forgot his wife doesn't pay her fair share of tax and forgot about his US residency (a bit like Boris forgot about employing sex pests and going to parties I think it's fair to say). He's the guy who's put taxes up to record levels, yet wants to cut them. He wants to lower taxes so bad that he says we can't afford to, but jacked them up so he can lower them...... Because it's the right thing to do (?).... but we can't afford it.... But we will do it because we can. We can't but..... Well who the hell knows? The thing is he's bouncing around like Zebedee saying nice contradicting things so we should all feel greatful.

Meanwhile, all 4 of the candidates either abstained or voted in favour of supporting Boris's ramshackle cartel car crash of a government. The very government they've all said is failing. The very government they've supported (or in the case of Truss, continue to support) since it's inception. A government they've all concluded is so bad that we need one of them to come and fix it. A government so good and "delivering for the British people" that not a single one will ask those exact same "British People" to rubber stamp it's clean bill of health should one of them win the seal of approval from a small group of rich, elderly white men.

Democracy folks.
 
Sadly, it is democracy though.
Blame the general population for electing the racist sexist liar.
What we are seeing now is internal party politics, the democratic election was some years ago, and some years away.
"Britains not got talent", every night this week on the TV.
 
According to the BBC, the leadership race is intensifying. So intense they couldn't even be arsed to have the last debate. This leadership race is about as intense as a whacky worm.
 
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