UK politics general discussion

[jon81uk]

the more that leave the better the pay and conditions will have to become to attract new employees.

Yet the government doesn't seem to have realised this and are not increasing pay.

Tell someone working in a factory or a warehouse that teachers are low paid and they will also shove the placards where the sun doesn’t shine.

Its not possible to compare a role that needs weeks of training with a role that needs years of training. Also trying to make different workers "fight" each other is a classic Conservative tactic to try and blame someone else when (look, they are stealing your benefits) when actually its the government not closing tax loopholes allowing their billionaire mates to get away with it all.

Lets actually try to compare though, Amazon warehouse pay is from £12.71 an hour, so about £23k a year. Teachers start at £28k and will need several years training and probably have student loans to pay. I think if you asked a person in the street if a teacher is worth £5k a year more than a warehouse worker they would say yes.
But in reality all jobs should be fairly paid relative to the hours required (and need for night working etc), the training needed to get into the field and the stress/risks involved. Look at the example of the technical services staff at Chessington going on strike too.

 

[Benzin]

The conditions will only improve if the government pull their finger out.

Most of the strikes are down to working conditions on top of pay not being in line with inflation.

Factory workers are also on low pay jobs, everyone should get a fair and actually living wage (the current term of it is laughable in the current living situation). Whataboutery like that though is a very common distraction tactic in terms of ignoring the common plight, often seen with footballers getting paid stupid high amounts and usual outcry regarding nurses and the military (NoT aS bRaVe As OuR tRoOpZ), yet those who shout loudest about that then balk at the idea that those same people would dare get a pay rise.

Just have to look at voting records for several MPs who are all talk but will vote in line with the party. Clap for nurses and carers but sod them getting any ACTUAL recompense for their roles in recent time. Or to actually feed children at school.

Maybe most of the MPs should follow 30p Lee's lifestyle suggestions. They earn far more than the average person (plus expenses), they don't need to be involved in any other jobs or consultancy roles if they've been elected as that is their full time job. But seem far too preoccupied with creating further division that improving things.

This meme really does sum up life:

 

[BigT]

Yet the government doesn't seem to have realised this and are not increasing pay.


Its not possible to compare a role that needs weeks of training with a role that needs years of training. Also trying to make different workers "fight" each other is a classic Conservative tactic to try and blame someone else when (look, they are stealing your benefits) when actually its the government not closing tax loopholes allowing their billionaire mates to get away with it all.

Lets actually try to compare though, Amazon warehouse pay is from £12.71 an hour, so about £23k a year. Teachers start at £28k and will need several years training and probably have student loans to pay. I think if you asked a person in the street if a teacher is worth £5k a year more than a warehouse worker they would say yes.
But in reality all jobs should be fairly paid relative to the hours required (and need for night working etc), the training needed to get into the field and the stress/risks involved. Look at the example of the technical services staff at Chessington going on strike too.

The reality is though a teachers average wage is closer to £38k a year, that’s not a low wage as suggested.

Average Primary Teacher Salary in the UK - Reed.co.uk

Discover the average primary teacher salary in the UK through https://www.reed.co.uk. Explore data on the average salaries of Primary Teacher professionals across the UK.

www.reed.co.uk

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying they aren’t worth it or don’t deserve more but equally there has to be a realistic expectation when the country is struggling economically due to largely global factors.
Yes the government could do more and I don’t think anyone would deny that but there is also a big mess to sort out at the same time.

 

[BarryZola]

If the price of housing hadn't been allowed to get so out of control over the past 30 years or so under different governments people wouldn't be so hard up. People shouldn't be paying as high a proportion of their wages as they are to have a legal place to sleep at night. Sort that out and you'll sort a lot of other affordability problems too as people would have more spare income. Bang a few million genuinely cheap pre-fabs out starting now for the short term (with conditions for buyers) and start a programme of training tradespeople straight out of school on a massive scale. Compulsory purchase by government for land to build on. Build more property than anyone needs until people stop treating homes as investments. It could be done, if there was a will from our masters...

 

[rob666]

But building social housing by the state was tried and failed...a hundred years ago... since Homes Fit for Heroes, councils built millions of decent quality homes for fifty years.
Then that nice Lady Thatcher decided it was wrong, and a failure of a system...and flogged them off, as straightforward bribes to new Tory voters.
A lot of them round here went for two or three grand, when local terraces were going for fifty.
The slum council estates didn't sell of course, only the nice, suburban and rural council homes...and the sink estates flourished, the underclass now really concentrated in their lair.
You won't get state social housing on any scale again, there is no profit in it for the banks, estate agents, letting agents, landlords and businesses in the private sector in the long run.

 

[James]

Given the mass strikes across the entire public sector the last few months would that not be 'a big mess to sort out'?

 

[Bert2theSpark]

The reality is though a teachers average wage is closer to £38k a year, that’s not a low wage as suggested.

Average Primary Teacher Salary in the UK - Reed.co.uk

Discover the average primary teacher salary in the UK through https://www.reed.co.uk. Explore data on the average salaries of Primary Teacher professionals across the UK.

www.reed.co.uk

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying they aren’t worth it or don’t deserve more but equally there has to be a realistic expectation when the country is struggling economically due to largely global factors.
Yes the government could do more and I don’t think anyone would deny that but there is also a big mess to sort out at the same time.

No, you're still strawmanning the conversation to make it look like you're the winner and anyone debating otherwise is wrong.

Benzin wasn't trying to discredit your arguement, many people do hardwork blue collar jobs for pitiful wages, but that doesn't discredit the gruelling hours that teachers work. In fact I've learnt recently people who have middle-class upbringings who are more likely to suffer mentally when they can't provide for their families whereas working class people grew up with that insecurity so are less likely to face mental illness as their view of the world doesn't collapse.

I'm not left-wing by any means however we all participate in the same society and should have recognise these issues between class divides are more alike than we realise against people in the upper class, who don't realise that they also they participate in the same society as us all. We're all human at the end of the day...

 

[Benzin]

In fact I've learnt recently people who have middle-class upbringings who are more likely to suffer mentally when they can't provide for their families whereas working class people grew up with that insecurity so are less likely to face mental illness as their view of the world doesn't collapse.

This makes a lot of sense, especially from the perspective that when growing up and you're not really wanting for anything (within reason, but you've got a secure roof over your head and not having to worry about meals), then suddenly as an adult in an ever-changing world and becoming that provider is a massive realisation. Especially with a kid.

Also with the viewpoint of having a disabled wife and seeing the excuse of me earning "too much" in the eyes of the government that apparently £30k is enough to support 2 adults and a baby? Even if she could work you then need to get childcare and there goes £12-15k annually which effectively wipes out her earnings.

Shopping is absolutely depressing these days with the costs. Then consider the energy costs that are in a wilderness of their own. Its an absolute disaster the current situation and sad that the "they only want more money" tactic constantly works, when the strikes are often for far more reason than that.

 

[Dave]

The reality is though a teachers average wage is closer to £38k a year, that’s not a low wage as suggested.

Average Primary Teacher Salary in the UK - Reed.co.uk

Discover the average primary teacher salary in the UK through https://www.reed.co.uk. Explore data on the average salaries of Primary Teacher professionals across the UK.

www.reed.co.uk

Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying they aren’t worth it or don’t deserve more but equally there has to be a realistic expectation when the country is struggling economically due to largely global factors.
Yes the government could do more and I don’t think anyone would deny that but there is also a big mess to sort out at the same time.

When people say £38,000 a year is a good wage they seem to ignore inflation.

10 years ago £38,000 was a good wage, now it’s not consummate to the training and debt required to do that job.

If you stretch the logic there was a time when £600 a year was a fantastic wage, but a penny would feed you and your family for a day so it’s all relative to inflation.

Using NHS pay an average nurse has had an £11,000 pay cut, they don’t want anything other than that £11,000 back.

As for the countries finances, our problems are not ultimately related to the current global pressures, just made slightly worse. Since 2011 the UK has had some of the flattest growth in the G7 and this was absolutely exacerbated by Brexit. That’s not opinion it’s just counting.

 

[BigT]

And there is the problem, unrealistic expectations, a £38,000 average wage is a good wage when the national average is around £30,000.
A 28% levy for all of that extra year of training.

It’s also not a given that everyone gets an inflation matching wage rise every year either so I’m sorry but NHS staff have not had a wage cut, that’s just a union soundbite get a better pay offer.

 

[Alsty]

The actual figures are irrelevant. When nurses have to resort to food banks to feed their kids that suggests something isn't right

 

[Matt N]

It’s also worth noting that that £38,000 average could include many folk who are not indicative of the typical teacher in terms of wages. I’m talking headteachers, private school teachers, teachers working in London (for whom that £38,000 would go less far anyway)… basically anyone who is likely to earn a fair bit more than your average teacher.

Taking a look at the Department for Education’s website, which talks about the incentives to become a teacher, £38,000 is listed as the maximum wage for an English qualified teacher outside London unless they wish to take on further duties such as being a Head of Department or coaching other teachers: https://getintoteaching.education.gov.uk/salaries-and-benefits

Admittedly, it does say that “most established teachers will earn more than this maximum by progressing onto the upper pay range for teachers, or by becoming a leading practitioner”, but I’d assume that that means taking on other duties like management (e.g. becoming a Head of Department if you work in a secondary school).

This information comes from the Department for Education, so I think it’s about as good as it gets.

Also, it is worth noting that as I said before, recruitment targets often aren’t being met. In some subjects, the number of people pursuing postgraduate teacher training routes is as little as 17% of the government’s target: https://ifs.org.uk/articles/what-has-happened-teacher-pay-england

With this in mind, something is clearly putting people off of becoming teachers.

 

[Dave]

And there is the problem, unrealistic expectations, a £38,000 average wage is a good wage when the national average is around £30,000.
A 28% levy for all of that extra year of training.

It’s also not a given that everyone gets an inflation matching wage rise every year either so I’m sorry but NHS staff have not had a wage cut, that’s just a union soundbite get a better pay offer.

So for £8,000 a year extra you get an extra tax effectively as you will never pay off the debt.

The NHS has had a real terms £11,000 average pay cut, again that’s not opinion it’s just counting. I don’t think the NHS expected it every year hence why they didn’t complain in the following years it didn’t occur

2011
2012
2013
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022

But unlike the private sector after 12 years it got a bit silly to just keep getting shafted and offered applause for the trouble….

 

[AstroDan]

Nobody is forcing teachers to work for these conditions, if you don’t like them then do what others have done and find a better paid job.

This is ridiculous.

My entire higher education was built on being a teacher. I can't just jump ship into another sector and expect them to pay me the same, even if after a few years I could earn more.

I didnt realise there'd be real terms pay cuts over 15 years. Should I have consulted Mystic Meg in 2007 when I was completing my teacher training?

I've given everything to this profession over 15 years. It cannot just be walked away from with a shoulder shrug. It's worth fighting to get the pay restored and working hours back to around 45 hours a week rather than the current 50-55.


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[AstroDan]

And there is the problem, unrealistic expectations, a £38,000 average wage is a good wage when the national average is around £30,000.
A 28% levy for all of that extra year of training.

It’s also not a given that everyone gets an inflation matching wage rise every year either so I’m sorry but NHS staff have not had a wage cut, that’s just a union soundbite get a better pay offer.

Maybe everyone should just be paid the same regardless of your job, hours and accountability?


Look at the bloody facts of teacher (or nurses, or the police) pay awards since 2011 and compare them with inflation.

Or just read the Mail.

You clearly don't value these sectors and seem content for real terms salary to fall because someone else earns less.

Your attitude absolutely stinks. I'm sat here getting wound up by you over my morning coffee I find you that unbelievable.

I avoid the Daily Mail comments section for the same reason.

 

[Plastic Person]

Not really sure which path of employment that @BigT approves of at this point? Fixed pay public sector workers should just move on and find a better job but just not as a self-starting freelancer, as this apparently means you’re a tax dodger?

 

[rob666]

If you don't like your low paid job in the NHS or state schools, go do something better paid instead.
Easy to say if you can afford private health care and education.
Leaves the rest of us with a collapsing health and education system, but that is simply our fault for being poor.
The simple solution remains...eat the rich, feed the poor.

 

[Matt N]

Out of interest, how do teachers work for 50-55 hours a week? What do they need to do that warrants so many working hours?

I was always aware that they worked more hours than simply the 9-3 school day, but I never knew they worked that many more… if the actual teaching (~30 hours a week?) only takes up 50-60% of their working time, what fills the rest of it?

I’m aware that teachers do marking and lesson planning and the like, but surely that doesn’t take up an extra 20-25 hours per week on its own, so what other duties do teachers have that fill up that much time?

I’m not asking that to be confrontational, and I apologise if it comes across that way. I’m genuinely interested to know, as 50-55 hours a week seems disproportionately high given that the actual teaching only takes up 30 hours a week.

 

[rob666]

Well Matt, as a quite recent student teacher in primary, who isn't one now, so can be independant...my experience was something like...
Getting up at 5:30 to grade, group, organise and pack the days teaching stuff.
An hours class prep and individual group table setting in class before the school day.
The school day...few breaks with play supervision/class prep and starting marking.
End of school day, deconstruct and pack away that day's teaching resources, or after school sports groups.
Grade each individual, by score, for speaking, reading, listening and writing for literacy monitoring for ofsted (screw em)
Grade and set focus targets as above for numeracy groups, mental maths and number comprehension.
Go home to do between 30 and 90 sets of work marking and grading assessments.
Set homework.
Begin school report writing notes.
Raise my head up from the table around 8:30pm.

Half day Saturday doing lesson plans, work marking, report reading, and report writing.
Sunday off, apart from bag sorting and box packing for an hour in the evening.
So fifty hours if you are lucky, up to eighty if you are dedicated, or a bit obsessive.

So people leave for easier work for more money, like gardening.

Edit...loved the experience of training, it was great...
But I lasted half a term as a part time "real" teacher, and put my notice in for the end of term.
Could manage everything, apart from the mass of needless recording and useless admin..."for ofsted".
Gardening is great, a single sheet of paper lasts me two weeks for my careful recording and reporting of every last detail!

 

[Benzin]

Pretty much nail on head. Easily doing 8-5 in the actual school on some days, add on marking and lesson planning to fulfil the needs of the syllabus in evenings and weekends.

Even if you just did 8-5 you're doing 45 hours a week.

But you get longer holidays so it 'balances' out. Even if you still have to do some work during those.