UK politics general discussion

[pluk]

No one joins a vocational profession to get rich, because its pretty obvious from the get go that you can't (with the possible exception of doctors in some branches of medicine, even within the NHS), but that doesn't mean those workers shouldn't be rewarded with decent renumeration packages that at the very least stay roughly in line with inflation over time. Let's not forget that as well as headline wages many have seen the utter destruction of their pensions over this time too, including in ways which have been just plain illegal as seen in recent succesful high court action taken by various services.

You can't just let market forces dictate pay in areas where there is no market, there is one employer. Even if you think that is how things should work, surely you can see the problem with all the experience leaving for something else, leaving behind all the inexperienced? Aside from the quality of delivery of public services falling dramatically, it is also poor financial sense when recruitment and training itself is so costly. It's a massive false economy.

 

[Dave]

No one joins a vocational profession to get rich, because its pretty obvious from the get go that you can't (with the possible exception of doctors in some branches of medicine, even within the NHS), but that doesn't mean those workers shouldn't be rewarded with decent renumeration packages that at the very least stay roughly in line with inflation over time. Let's not forget that as well as headline wages many have seen the utter destruction of their pensions over this time too, including in ways which have been just plain illegal as seen in recent succesful high court action taken by various services.

You can't just let market forces dictate pay in areas where there is no market, there is one employer. Even if you think that is how things should work, surely you can see the problem with all the experience leaving for something else, leaving behind all the inexperienced? Aside from the quality of delivery of public services falling dramatically, it is also poor financial sense when recruitment and training itself is so costly. It's a massive false economy.

You also want to avoid market forces in healthcare, there are two reasons the NHS is one of the lowest cost health systems in the world:

1) It has huge buying power to force lower drug prices.

2) As pay is nationally set you control wage inflation (which as mentioned can be a negative for the staff).

If you privatised it (even if you kept it free at point of use but private companies ran it) you would lose the bulk buy power for drugs so those prices would go up.

You would also get wage competition so wages would increase exponentially right now. It would eventually settle as the vacancies filled but your initial costs would balloon. Therefore you have to increase taxes in the current model or move to an insurance based model that would be far more expensive.

And for those who already have private health insurance who think it won’t impact you, at the moment your premiums are subsidised as the private hospitals don’t have to invest in emergency services, and they farm complex procedures back to the NHS (in my NHS organisation we see every private patient who has a pacemaker regardless as the private hospitals won’t touch them). If they have to suddenly provide those services what do you think happens to your premiums?

 

[Matt N]

On a random, semi-related note; why is it that dentistry is semi-privatised in this country? Most other elements of healthcare are totally free, but even NHS dentists command a fee, which seems odd to me given that everything else on the NHS is free at the first point of contact.

I only had the thought because contrary to a previous comment, dentistry is a vocational profession where you can get quite rich, as far as I’m aware. The fact that’s it’s a highly in-demand course at university, with an earlier deadline for UCAS applications, would certainly suggest this, anyway… when I was in Sixth Form, Dentistry was in the same “high demand” degree category as Medicine, Law, Veterinary Science, and any degree from Oxbridge. I gather that a common thread between all of those is long training, but pretty high wages when you eventually get to the end…

 

[Dave]

On a random, semi-related note; why is it that dentistry is semi-privatised in this country? Most other elements of healthcare are totally free, but even NHS dentists command a fee, which seems odd to me given that everything else on the NHS is free at the first point of contact.

I only had the thought because contrary to a previous comment, dentistry is a vocational profession where you can get quite rich, as far as I’m aware. The fact that’s it’s a highly in-demand course at university, with an earlier deadline for UCAS applications, would certainly suggest this, anyway… when I was in Sixth Form, Dentistry was in the same “high demand” degree category as Medicine, Law, Veterinary Science, and any degree from Oxbridge. I gather that a common thread between all of those is long training, but pretty high wages when you eventually get to the end…

Dentistry was part of the NHS (it was a little more complicated as other responsibilities for teeth existed in local authority control. Like GP’s and opticians they where never fully integrated though (most GP’s are privately owned partnerships).

Over the years successive governments have pulled more of the service outside of the NHS funded model for cost saving.

 

[AstroDan]

Teachers working 12-hour days, leaked report says

The research, commissioned by the Department for Education, has not yet been made public.

www.bbc.co.uk

If it's too much, get a less taxing job, i guess.

Thankfully I'm not in the 60+ camp. I'm around 50 to 52 average.

This is austerity, covid, academisation and fragmentation in one.

 

[BigT]

If it's too much, get a less taxing job, i guess.

Exactly your finally getting it.

Vocational jobs are possibly the only jobs left where employees expect that it’s a job for life (or until early retirement anyway) whilst the average time in a job in the UK is actually around 4 years.
I commend anyone who sticks in the same job for more than 5 years, I certainly couldn’t.

Anyway I’m sorry if my comments have you hot under the collar, I don’t deliberately go out of my way to offend and upset people however it sometimes seems.

 

[Alsty]

I'd rather we paid our public sector workers a fair wage than have all our experienced people leave their respective professions.

You don't seem to value the importance of teachers, police, nurses, doctors and others which I find quite perplexing. I would sooner we paid them than hedge fund managers and multimillion pound CEOs.

 

[Dave]

Exactly your finally getting it.

Vocational jobs are possibly the only jobs left where employees expect that it’s a job for life (or until early retirement anyway) whilst the average time in a job in the UK is actually around 4 years.
I commend anyone who sticks in the same job for more than 5 years, I certainly couldn’t.

Anyway I’m sorry if my comments have you hot under the collar, I don’t deliberately go out of my way to offend and upset people however it sometimes seems.

The 4yr average doesn’t mean people move company, it’s just the average time people tend to spend in one role. That happens in vocational jobs to.

 

[pluk]

Vocational jobs are possibly the only jobs left where employees expect that it’s a job for life (or until early retirement anyway) whilst the average time in a job in the UK is actually around 4 years.
I commend anyone who sticks in the same job for more than 5 years, I certainly couldn’t.

While I've had the same employer for over 15 years, I have never done the same job in the same location for more than 3, most of the roles being vastly different from each other.

 

[Alsty]

Curiously, Conservative MPs are distributing leaflets that make no reference to their party, their logo or even their trademark blue colour.


From: https://mobile.twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/1642965682877767715


And Carol Vorderman has found most Conservative MPs don't want to mention their party on their own Twitter pages.

 

[Benzin]

This has been going on for ages. Sad really that such tactics are resorted to but just shows that just interested in remaining in some form of prominent position rather than representing their party or constituents.

 

[WillPS]

Standard politics. Happens both sides - quite a few of the Labour candidate campaign leaflets in the 2017 election were not red and barely mentioned the Labour party.

 

[Matt N]

It’s only 4 days until the local elections (in my area, at least). I was coming in here to ask; do any of you know of anywhere I could find out information about the candidates standing in my local ward?

I only ask because I’d like to vote in the elections, but I feel woefully underinformed about the candidates who are standing in my ward, and I couldn’t find an awful lot through a Google search. I would like to cast an informed vote if possible, but I’m struggling to find much information.

My original plan was to vote Labour, as I would at a national level if there was a General Election, but I’ve discovered that the only candidates standing in my village are a Green candidate, a Conservative candidate, and an independent. I believe the Green candidate is our current district councillor, as he’s been sending out leaflets talking about his record, but I know nothing about the other two aside from their party affiliation (or lack of).

I’d be very happy to vote for the Green Party on the basis of the wider party’s policies, and I have absolutely no issue with our current district councillor; he seems to have done a perfectly good job around here, as far as I can tell. However, part of me would feel slightly guilty voting Green on the basis that my grandparents (both my nan & grandad, and my other grandad), who live in the next village, absolutely loathe the Green Party on the basis of their current district councillor (Green) being quite a controversial figure, and have strongly suggested that I don’t vote Green at any cost.

I also feel like I should at least consider what the Conservative and independent candidates are bringing to the table before blindly voting for the Green candidate.

I must say, I am looking forward to having my first vote, even if it is in a local election rather than a General Election!

 

[Plastic Person]

However, part of me would feel slightly guilty voting Green on the basis that my grandparents (both my nan & grandad, and my grandad), who live in the next village, absolutely loathe the Green Party on the basis of their current district councillor (Green) being quite a controversial figure, and have strongly suggested that I don’t vote Green at any cost.

Your vote is your vote, and your grandparents have had decades of casting their own and influencing the current political landscape. It's your turn now.

It's also OK to have to work through the discomfort of this. I loved my grandfather, he was a warm, generous and inspiring man who built himself from nothing. He also had ill-informed, selfish political beliefs that ultimately didn't hold up to any scrutiny, because he just chose to follow whatever was printed in The Mail or Express. I went through a period of youthful resentment towards him (not a stage I feel is on the horizon for you!), but feel I was able to square the 'two Grandads' in the end.

 

[Matt N]

Your vote is your vote, and your grandparents have had decades of casting their own and influencing the current political landscape. It's your turn now.

It's also OK to have to work through the discomfort of this. I loved my grandfather, he was a warm, generous and inspiring man who built himself from nothing. He also had ill-informed, selfish political beliefs that ultimately didn't hold up to any scrutiny, because he just chose to follow whatever was printed in The Mail or Express. I went through a period of youthful resentment towards him (not a stage I feel is on the horizon for you!), but feel I was able to square the 'two Grandads' in the end.

I would not say I have any resentment towards people who have different beliefs to me by any means. I fully accept that everybody has different opinions, and I must admit that I am surprised at how tribal and personal politics sometimes is in many regards.

It does sometimes seem like some people struggle to accept that others hold different political (or general) opinions to them, and I try not to be like that. I don’t know if the members of this forum would agree based on my online presence, but I’d like to think that I’m an open-minded person who is accepting of other people’s opinions.

I hold political beliefs myself, and I would say I have at least a mild interest in politics and current affairs, but I would not describe myself as massively political or as someone who has massively entrenched or fierce political beliefs. Compared to others my age, and others in wider society, I’d actually argue that I have fairly mild political opinions.

My moral quandary is more that even though I know deep down that my vote is entirely my own, part of me feels as though I should vote for the more widely perceived “greater good” rather than for what I alone personally believe in. Putting a cross in the box for the Green Party at the upcoming election would be my own belief, but part of me would feel guilty about “betraying” people I love dearly and what they believe in.

Do you get where I’m coming from?

 

[Plastic Person]

My moral quandary is more that even though I know deep down that my vote is entirely my own, part of me feels as though I should vote for the more widely perceived “greater good” rather than for what I alone personally believe in. Putting a cross in the box for the Green Party at the upcoming election would be my own belief, but part of me would feel guilty about “betraying” people I love dearly and what they believe in.

Do you get where I’m coming from?

I get where you are coming from, largely because I am familiar with you and your values, the closeness to your family that your posts illustrate, as well as the respect for your grandparents you have expressed.

But, ask yourself this; in your opinion, is voting for the Conservative party "for the greater good" going to be of benefit for the greater good of the country, at this point in our history? I know it's just a local election, but there is a wider society beyond your Grandparents' village, and it will continue after they are gone.

You may have "mild" political beliefs, but you are also independent-minded enough to follow your nose...

 

[Alix]

It’s only 4 days until the local elections (in my area, at least). I was coming in here to ask; do any of you know of anywhere I could find out information about the candidates standing in my local ward?

I only ask because I’d like to vote in the elections, but I feel woefully underinformed about the candidates who are standing in my ward, and I couldn’t find an awful lot through a Google search. I would like to cast an informed vote if possible, but I’m struggling to find much information.

My original plan was to vote Labour, as I would at a national level if there was a General Election, but I’ve discovered that the only candidates standing in my village are a Green candidate, a Conservative candidate, and an independent. I believe the Green candidate is our current district councillor, as he’s been sending out leaflets talking about his record, but I know nothing about the other two aside from their party affiliation (or lack of).

I’d be very happy to vote for the Green Party on the basis of the wider party’s policies, and I have absolutely no issue with our current district councillor; he seems to have done a perfectly good job around here, as far as I can tell. However, part of me would feel slightly guilty voting Green on the basis that my grandparents (both my nan & grandad, and my other grandad), who live in the next village, absolutely loathe the Green Party on the basis of their current district councillor (Green) being quite a controversial figure, and have strongly suggested that I don’t vote Green at any cost.

I also feel like I should at least consider what the Conservative and independent candidates are bringing to the table before blindly voting for the Green candidate.

I must say, I am looking forward to having my first vote, even if it is in a local election rather than a General Election!

Your local BBC pages should give you a run down of every candidate for your ward, then you can google their names to find out exactly what they’re standing for.
For your points re voting in line with family tradition - you don’t have to tell anyone who you’ve voted for, so you can just nod and smile politely without confirming exactly where you put your cross. Works for me whenever anything controversial comes up with my lot - I learned a long time ago there’s little point trying to change entrenched views in family, just leads to fallings out and heartache.

 

[WillPS]

part of me would feel guilty about “betraying” people I love dearly and what they believe in.

It's a private ballot for a reason. If family loyalty is conditional on voting a certain way then that sounds like a good reason to never discuss politics with them (I'm sure it isn't).

 

[Matt N]

It's a private ballot for a reason. If family loyalty is conditional on voting a certain way then that sounds like a good reason to never discuss politics with them (I'm sure it isn't).

I know for a fact that it absolutely isn’t, in my case; this moral quandary comes from within rather than from anyone in my family.

I know deep down that my concerns are probably irrational; we’re not an overly political family, on the whole.

 

[WillPS]

I know for a fact that it absolutely isn’t, in my case; this moral quandary comes from within rather than from anyone in my family.

I know deep down that my concerns are probably irrational; we’re not an overly political family, on the whole.

Then mark whichever box feels right, feel comfortable doing so knowing that you are one vote among hundreds/thousands of others in your ward, and don't worry about judgment.