UK politics general discussion

[AstroDan]

The absurd negotiations re: teachers' salaries between the government and the unions at the moment... after 12 years of falling real terms' pay (between 11 and 23% depending on what you read), this is the state of play across Great Britain right now:

In Scotland, teachers have been offered 7% this year, backdated to April 2022, a further 5% next month and 2% in January 2024 making a total of 14% over 2 years.

In Wales, teachers have been offered 6.5% this year, plus 1.5% lump sum, then 5% for 2023-24, making a total of 13% over 2 years.

In England, teachers have been offered 5% this year (unfunded), plus £1,000 lump sum then 4.5% (partly funded) in 2023-24 making a total of 9.5% plus £1,000 one off.

I am unsure why the government seem to think teachers in England are worth several thousands of pounds a year less than teachers in Wales or Scotland. A one-off bribe will simply leave teachers in England around 4.5% worse off per year than a teacher north of Hadrian's Wall.

The government could solve this by matching the Scottish offer to teachers in England, and funding this into schools budgets, Strikes would be over and everyone can get on with life.

Also - for anyone wondering, 'unfunded' means that schools have to find the pay award out of existing school budgets.

 

[BigT]

Where’s the money coming from though? Every increase in public sector pay has to come from somewhere and personal taxation is already at record levels unless you are a freelance media type, then you just avoid it.

 

[Benzin]

Don't we have an extra £350m a year now?

That's what the bus told us.

 

[Rob]

Don't we have an extra £350m a year now?

That's what the bus told us.

Yes, but that has gone directly to the NHS and is why waiting times are now at an all time low and service is excellent across the board. Oh... hang on a minute....

 

[jon81uk]

Where’s the money coming from though? Every increase in public sector pay has to come from somewhere and personal taxation is already at record levels unless you are a freelance media type, then you just avoid it.

Maybe the government should have done something about public sector pay over the last ten years then so it didn’t get this bad then. Moderate increases each year is easier to fund than a large one.

 

[Alsty]

Where’s the money coming from though? Every increase in public sector pay has to come from somewhere and personal taxation is already at record levels unless you are a freelance media type, then you just avoid it.

By taxing society so the rich pay their fair share.

"The Equality Trust found that, when adjusted for inflation, the combined wealth of Britain’s billionaires had risen from £53.9bn in 1990 to more than £653bn in 2022. This represents an increase in billionaire wealth of over 1,000% over the past 32 years.

The campaign group, which is calling for a “fairer tax system that actively redistributes wealth to tackle inequality”, suggests five wealth tax reforms. The measures include equalising capital gains tax with income tax, scrapping the non-dom regime and introducing a 1% tax on super-rich people’s assets over £10m – which, they claim, could raise £10bn on its own."

Source

 

[rob666]

Oh, but then all the billionaires would get on their yachts and sail away with all the money.

Yes, but that has gone directly to the NHS and is why waiting times are now at an all time low and service is excellent across the board. Oh... hang on a minute....

My wait time has been great fun..."three month waiting list" my consultant told me just two months ago...so why have I been waiting for the sodding operations to happen over three and a half years?

 

[BigT]

The problem isn’t the billionaires there aren’t many of them, the problem is the freelancers etc. that set up a limited company for the sole purpose of avoiding paying the higher rate of income tax, there are literally millions of them.

 

[Alsty]

There you go then, you answered your own question. Close the tax loopholes.

 

[rob666]

The problem is the billionaires.
They shouldn't have them.
99% income tax after the first five million.
Easy to do.

 

[Tom]

The absurd negotiations re: teachers' salaries between the government and the unions at the moment... after 12 years of falling real terms' pay (between 11 and 23% depending on what you read), this is the state of play across Great Britain right now:

In Scotland, teachers have been offered 7% this year, backdated to April 2022, a further 5% next month and 2% in January 2024 making a total of 14% over 2 years.

In Wales, teachers have been offered 6.5% this year, plus 1.5% lump sum, then 5% for 2023-24, making a total of 13% over 2 years.

In England, teachers have been offered 5% this year (unfunded), plus £1,000 lump sum then 4.5% (partly funded) in 2023-24 making a total of 9.5% plus £1,000 one off.

I am unsure why the government seem to think teachers in England are worth several thousands of pounds a year less than teachers in Wales or Scotland. A one-off bribe will simply leave teachers in England around 4.5% worse off per year than a teacher north of Hadrian's Wall.

The government could solve this by matching the Scottish offer to teachers in England, and funding this into schools budgets, Strikes would be over and everyone can get on with life.

Also - for anyone wondering, 'unfunded' means that schools have to find the pay award out of existing school budgets.

The more 'generous' rises in Scotland are politically motivated by the SNP. I believe the Scottish government negotiates directly with unions, while in the case of England the UK government does not.

It is hardly based on sound finances either as the Scottish government operates at a steeper deficit, relying on the Barnet formula to mitigate somewhat.

Believe similar could be said about Wales but I am less sure on that.

This is one of the main reasons that devolution is a fallacy of control and is simply a serious of appeasement gifts of false power to try and quell arguments at every political event campaign. It has solved virtually no problems in any part of the UK.

 

[Rick]

Don't we have an extra £350m a year now?

That's what the bus told us.

How quickly we forget the lies ... It said £350m a week.

 

[BigT]

There you go then, you answered your own question. Close the tax loopholes.

But that’s never going to happen so I will ask again where is the money going to come from?

 

[AstroDan]

But that’s never going to happen so I will ask again where is the money going to come from?

Ok.

Don't bother. Let's all be poor.

What a country.

Redistribution is the only way.

 

[BigT]

Ok.

Don't bother. Let's all be poor.

What a country.

Redistribution is the only way.

Nobody is forcing teachers to work for these conditions, if you don’t like them then do what others have done and find a better paid job.

 

[Matt N]

Nobody is forcing teachers to work for these conditions, if you don’t like them then do what others have done and find a better paid job.

I apologise for playing devil’s advocate a tad here, but; if all teachers left and found a better paid job with better working conditions, who would be left to be a teacher?

Besides, it appears as though plenty of teachers are heeding your advice. There is allegedly a crisis in teacher recruitment at present, with the amount of new teacher vacancies being filled at an all time low and the rate of staff loss being at an all time high. If that continues, there will eventually be no teachers, and what happens then? Who will actually exist to be a teacher?

The government are clearly trying to boost the appeal of teaching as a job path. New teachers have apparently been offered vastly more favourable wages than long-serving teachers, and I seem to remember hearing that anyone who does a PGCE is automatically entitled to a £27,000 tax-free bursary. If there wasn’t a problem with teacher recruitment being low relative to the amount of teachers vacating their posts, then surely the government wouldn’t waste unneeded money on these incentives to boost recruitment?

From where I’m standing, it’s hard to deny that staff recruitment and retention are clearly big issues within the teaching profession based on the information that’s available.

 

[rob666]

But it is easier to ignore the problem if you have lots of money and don't give a damn.
Which becomes easier still if society moves to a greed is good philosophy.
If it wasn't for low paid teachers, nurses and the like, the country would quickly crumble.
We don't all think of the money first...thank god.
There would be no education or nursing if we did.

 

[Benzin]

Nobody is forcing teachers to work for these conditions, if you don’t like them then do what others have done and find a better paid job.

Ah, as always its the worker's fault for taking "low paid" jobs, rather than those in charge of the public purse paying out appropriately.

Sure if you told the striking teachers to get a better paid job you'd end up with a placard where the sun don't shine.

Can tell we're struggling as a country due to all the fruit shortages since all the low end workers left the country. Can't imagine why those foreign workers left though.

 

[jon81uk]

But that’s never going to happen so I will ask again where is the money going to come from?

Why is it never going to happen? Ineffective Conservative government who are actually in favour of tax loopholes for their mates. It could happen with a decent government

Nobody is forcing teachers to work for these conditions, if you don’t like them then do what others have done and find a better paid job.

Then we have no teachers, no nurses, no police, no border control, no doctors, no police. We need to actually pay public sector workers competitive pay or we won't have any workers!

This is already a massive issue in the NHS, nurses leave for agency work for more money and the NHS then pay agency fees and higher wages for the staff, paying the higher wage directly in the first place would save money!

 

[BigT]

Ah, as always its the worker's fault for taking "low paid" jobs, rather than those in charge of the public purse paying out appropriately.

Sure if you told the striking teachers to get a better paid job you'd end up with a placard where the sun don't shine.

Can tell we're struggling as a country due to all the fruit shortages since all the low end workers left the country. Can't imagine why those foreign workers left though.

Tell someone working in a factory or a warehouse that teachers are low paid and they will also shove the placards where the sun doesn’t shine.

I think the point is being missed, lots of teachers, nurses etc. are leaving, that is the point I’m making, market forces will dictate policy not placards, the more that leave the better the pay and conditions will have to become to attract new employees.
The argument about who will do these jobs if everyone left is about as silly as saying all of the millionaires will leave if they have to pay more tax.

On the point of closing tax loopholes no government will tackle this as they are all at it, look how many opposition (all parties) MP’s have Ltd companies.
Effective government yes but under our political system it would be government suicide.