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UK politics general discussion

Dave said:
They have announced all of that:

- Less tax for working people when economically viable, close tax loop holes that rich people and corporations use.

- More welfare state

- More nationalisation (they have announced a nationally owned energy provider will be created and said all train operations would return to national operations as contracts end or fail).

- They have stated they are for the BBC and maintaining the license fee.

I appreciate the right wing media don’t help them communicate all of that but it’s all been announced.
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I don't read any print press. They are doing an atrocious job of communicating this.

Edit...
Intrigued by your response I went to the labour party website. Nothing. Nothing that gives you any clue about what they stand fir, what they'd do differently, what the current administration is getting wrong.

The only thing close is the fantastically vague 5 missions...

Screenshot_20230630-155547_Chrome~2.jpg
Screenshot_20230630-155553_Chrome~2.jpg

Which is so fantastically vague to be meaningless. Terrible phrases like 'good jobs' (yay, no one has to he a cleaner any more!) mean nothing.

This is the whole site map.

Screenshot_20230630-155527_Chrome~2.jpg

Where's 'what we stand for', where's 'why we should lead', where's 'here are all the things the government are doing wrong', where's a blog from the leader?

If even their own public facing website tells us nothing and has no passion, where and how do they think they are going to win people over?
 
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Starmer dropped a massive bollock. Especially in Liverpool. Held the conference there. Announced his backing of the Hillsborough law. Which, will earn you massive points in that part of the country.

And then undid that hard work by writing in The S*n.

As much as loves to wait and see. He doesn't half drop a clanger when he has momentum.
 
pluk said:
I don't read any print press. They are doing an atrocious job of communicating this.

Edit...
Intrigued by your response I went to the labour party website. Nothing. Nothing that gives you any clue about what they stand fir, what they'd do differently, what the current administration is getting wrong.

The only thing close is the fantastically vague 5 missions...

Screenshot_20230630-155547_Chrome~2.jpg
Screenshot_20230630-155553_Chrome~2.jpg

Which is so fantastically vague to be meaningless. Terrible phrases like 'good jobs' (yay, no one has to he a cleaner any more!) mean nothing.

This is the whole site map.

Screenshot_20230630-155527_Chrome~2.jpg

If even their own public facing website tells us nothing and has no passion, where and how do they think they are going to win people over?
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You need to use google like everyone else does.

labour.org.uk

Press Archive - The Labour Party

labour.org.uk labour.org.uk

That’s the bit you want, the bit that goes out to the press.

Now I will agree Labours social media is not as effective as it could be, indeed even big supporters of Starmer bemoan the social media teams work, less bothered about the website as no-one really use them anymore.
 
Dave said:
You need to use google like everyone else does.
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Guess what I clicked on to get to that site...
That's right, the first hit on Google.
If I have to go find it they are doing it wrong.

Wow, five dry press releases since March. I wonder why their coverage and impact is so poor?

As a floating voter for life, I should be an absolute prime target for whatever algorithms chuck things in my general direction. I see nothing.
 
pluk said:
Guess what I clicked on to get to that site...
That's right, the first hit on Google.
If I have to go find it they are doing it wrong.

Wow, five dry press releases since March. I wonder why their coverage and impact is so poor?

As a floating voter for life, I should be an absolute prime target for whatever algorithms chuck things in my general direction. I see nothing.
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But there is no general election coming so no one is spending on advertising for the algorithm to chuck at you.

For now its up to the press to choose to publish and most of the press is right wing.
 
jon81uk said:
For now its up to the press to choose to publish and most of the press is right wing.
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Fair enough with the social media, but I'll refer you back to those 5 dry press releases since March.

Getting coverage and points out there should be easy as hell right now with the current mess the government and country is in, there should be zingers flying across parliament, there should be noise coming from the party. There simply isn't.
 
pluk said:
Fair enough with the social media, but I'll refer you back to those 5 dry press releases since March.

Getting coverage and points out there should be easy as hell right now with the current mess the government and country is in, there should be zingers flying across parliament, there should be noise coming from the party. There simply isn't.
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Regarding Google people don’t just Google “Labour Party” they will Google “what’s the labour policy on tax” I got a press release on reintroducing the higher rate tax band.

As for the press releases there is no point getting press out there at the moment. The Tory party has been imploding which has two considerations:

1) Why interrupt your opponent when they are damaging themselves without your help.

2) Even if you wanted to get stuff out there, political journo’s are laser focused on the Tory drama so it won’t get any airtime anyway.

As mentioned I would like to see a better social media campaign but other than that why would you expect more effort from the opposition than the government when it’s not an election cycle or conference season?
 
Well all I can tell you is that in the 30 + years I've had something of an interest in politics I have never before known less about an opposition front bench, of who they are and what they stand for. You can't tell me the press is suddenly right wing, it was always the way, and pre internet and social media that press had had a much tighter grip on the reporting and narrative.

This doesn't come from a place of wanting to be negative about the Labour party, more frustration. I'm concerned that despite what they've done the current lot could continue when the rime comes if there is nothing effective in their way. With a few months to go you do not want a bunch of unknown and untrusted MPs to be the ones presented to the public, people should be getting to know and trust them now.
 
Who trusts a politician they have got to know though...
I had a bit of respect for the Home Secretary until I discovered he never paid for the parking outside my local pub in the town centre...no need when there was a plain clothes copper stood next to his car.
Never paid for his parking, yet he never got a ticket...funny that.
 
pluk said:
Well all I can tell you is that in the 30 + years I've had something of an interest in politics I have never before known less about an opposition front bench, of who they are and what they stand for. You can't tell me the press is suddenly right wing, it was always the way, and pre internet and social media that press had had a much tighter grip on the reporting and narrative.

This doesn't come from a place of wanting to be negative about the Labour party, more frustration. I'm concerned that despite what they've done the current lot could continue when the rime comes if there is nothing effective in their way. With a few months to go you do not want a bunch of unknown and untrusted MPs to be the ones presented to the public, people should be getting to know and trust them now.
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I think the issue is we have never had such a long period of inactive government prior to an election. Even John Major with the ERF crisis still wasn’t seen as completely incompetent, just losing grip. Labour where not pushing out major policy initiatives in 1995.

We have an inert government, people are crying out for Labour to be clear on policy as we are bereft of any from the Government but if Labour release any policy it either gets stolen by the Tory’s (todays NHS staffing plan is almost perfectly lifted from Labour) or by the time we get to an election it won’t be financially doable in one parliament and it then looks like a backtrack.

Look at the tuition fees, Starmer hasn’t changed his mind on scrappping them, he just knows he can’t do that as well as fix the rest of the sh*t show in one term and he has been lampooned for changing his policy. That would happen 100 times over if Labour released an effective manifesto now.
 
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Dave said:
Even John Major with the ERF crisis still wasn’t seen as completely incompetent, just losing grip. Labour where not pushing out major policy initiatives in 1995.
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No, but that's a great comparison of a period in time; back then I could probably have named 80% of the opposition bench and had a good idea of what they collectively stood for.

And again, I don’t think anyone sensible is after actual policies and costings, but currently there's not even a presence.
 
pluk said:
No, but that's a great comparison of a period in time; back then I could probably have named 80% of the opposition bench and had a good idea of what they collectively stood for.

And again, I don’t think anyone sensible is after actual policies and costings, but currently there's not even a presence.
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I think that’s rose tinted, even people like Alistair Campbell in interviews has said they didn’t have that sort of presence 2 years away from the 1997 general election.

As I say they need a better social media strategy but they won’t get main media coverage outside of a campaign or conference season. That’s not a “ohh woe Labour don’t get good media” it’s just a fact of life that the government sucks all the media oxygen as they are actually the ones responsible for what is happening at the time.
 
I just want to go back a couple of pages to the conversation about teachers’ pay, and the idea that teachers are leaving the profession to work in the Amazon Warehouse.

The Amazon Warehouse and the Gig Economy are not good jobs. In a way, that’s the point. When teachers say they’d rather work in the Amazon warehouse or the gig economy, it shows how down they are. But there is a danger that people start to see these jobs as overpaid doss jobs.

For anyone who thinks that the Amazon Warehouse sounds like a fun place to be, I’d recommend watching the BBC drama The Warehouse if you get a chance. Teachers have lost a lot of pay in real terms, but Amazon Warehouse workers have no meaningful sick pay. They turn up to work each day not knowing if they’re going to get hours. In one case a worker died on their shift. They put boxes around the body and told everyone to carry on working. Many workers have reported pissing in bottles because they couldn’t get toilet breaks. Amazon have been very successful at stopping their staff from unionising. These are jobs where people are under constant surveillance and people can be disciplined for saying hello to colleagues. It’s a job with no security whatsoever, and managers can get rid of you at any time without giving a reason.

It shouldn’t be a race to the bottom, but I doubt many teachers would really prefer to be working in the Amazon Warehouse.
 
Funcone said:
I just want to go back a couple of pages to the conversation about teachers’ pay, and the idea that teachers are leaving the profession to work in the Amazon Warehouse.

The Amazon Warehouse and the Gig Economy are not good jobs. In a way, that’s the point. When teachers say they’d rather work in the Amazon warehouse or the gig economy, it shows how down they are. But there is a danger that people start to see these jobs as overpaid doss jobs.

For anyone who thinks that the Amazon Warehouse sounds like a fun place to be, I’d recommend watching the BBC drama The Warehouse if you get a chance. Teachers have lost a lot of pay in real terms, but Amazon Warehouse workers have no meaningful sick pay. They turn up to work each day not knowing if they’re going to get hours. In one case a worker died on their shift. They put boxes around the body and told everyone to carry on working. Many workers have reported pissing in bottles because they couldn’t get toilet breaks. Amazon have been very successful at stopping their staff from unionising. These are jobs where people are under constant surveillance and people can be disciplined for saying hello to colleagues. It’s a job with no security whatsoever, and managers can get rid of you at any time without giving a reason.

It shouldn’t be a race to the bottom, but I doubt many teachers would really prefer to be working in the Amazon Warehouse.
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I suspect it’s teaching support staff that were considering those jobs.

We have an issue in the NHS that because minimum wage is increasing faster than the pay rises we are getting to the point that advances support roles (assistant nurses etc) pay is around the same now as other less skilled jobs. Because of this people are not applying for the NHS jobs when they come up and those in the jobs are looking for less stressful roles for the same pay outside of the NHS.

For graduate staff in the NHS people are either moving to the private sector, or moving to other countries that pay better (quite a lot swanning off to Australia, I suppose if you are going to be stuck on a isolationist, xenophobic island it may as well be sunny).
 
Dave said:
It’s not that simple, it’s fiscally conservative but socially liberal.
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Sorry, it really is that simple.
There has been a massive division between the haves and have nots since Thatcher.
You can't just put it down to small "c" conservative fiscal policy.
Labour have done little to counter that fact, as equality was seen as a vote loser.
Youth may be socially liberal, but you try telling my elderly right wing customers that they live in a socially liberal country...they simply don't.
We live in a divided nation, between rich and poor.
Austerity only hurt the poor.
There are few in the middle ground.
The rich have had a walkover for forty years.
 
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