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UK politics general discussion

Benzin said:
You can comment on her. How a lot of her decisions at the time have lead to many problems of the current time and these should be looked into.
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Yes if that’s the context of the piece, he didn’t even say she succeeded in pushing entrepreneurs to flourish, he just said that was her aim.

We have to get past this binary idea that people are either good or bad in most cases. The problem Starmer has is he is not a career politician and the media want him to play the simple message game. Life is complicated it would be nice if our politics could reflect that.

I personally dislike 98% of Thatchers ideology, but even I can bring myself to say she was competent in her aims although mistaken in her beliefs she had a love of her country.
 
Surely a Labour leader knows even the mention of her name is going to infuriate most of his heartlands.
LBC radio has hardly talked about anything else today so it seems quite a silly / unnecessary thing to even bring up.
 
I actually agree with Starmer. The economy is in long-term relative decline and has been for nearly 16 years now, the public finances are a mess and Labour have no sweeties to hand out at the next election, especially since the incumbents are busy scorching the earth behind them with pretty much irreversible decisions (for now). We're in the midst of the fourth industrial revolution and the UK is being left very far behind. The only solution is to abandon the irrelevant and ancient ideologies of the past, the likes of which Cameron, Truss and Corbyn were spearheading.

We're in a hole, there's at least a decade or so of tough, and politically unpopular medicine that Labour will need to administer. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool. Starmer and Reeves are trying to subtly wake the country up to the reality of the situation. He's politically weak and hamstrung, but I think Sunak has made limp wristed attempts with his bizarre conference speech and bringing up the subject of AI during the brief periods he can come up for oxygen between crisis'.

But all this is irrelevant really. It must be remembered that this is a country that little over a year ago was still extremely forgiving to the vandals and the architects of it all as they've been receiving well over a decade of conditioning from the incumbents. The country is slowly waking up to the cold realities and are now flogging the Tories naked through the streets. And you should never disturb your enemy whilst they're making mistakes.

Labour have become the default 'not Tory' option and Stramer is the Mr A.N. Other candidate. That sounds terrible and whilst they weren't making any headroom not long ago and I would have criticised them for this in the past, it's currently working. The focus is on the woes of the Tories and the SNP, Momentum have largely crawled under rocks to lick their wounds. Whilst I get the frustration that Starmer's message of change and wish to rip up the old rule books is not cutting through yet, it's probably just better to accept the gargantuan poll lead for now and turn the dial up slowly should it start declining. It's better to under promise and over deliver and let's face it, there's not really much of a positive message to be sold easily.

Like 2010 and 2015, this is set to be another election where people will probably end up voting for the parties they dislike the least rather the ones they like the most. This isn't 1997, there is no booming economy, there is no money in the piggy bank. That makes him right in what he's saying, but stupid for saying it. Writing in Tory newspapers to appease their declining readership base is frought with more challenges than opportunities. People underestimate just how close the Labour party got to being completely destroyed a short while ago. I was in it at the time and it really was an existential crisis. It's incredible, and probably more a testament to how the benefactors of that chaos sitting on the government benches have imploded than anything Labour have done, that the party is in the position it is in now. But it's still incredibly fragile, they still have a massive problem with their voter base in the old heartlands and in Scotland, and Momentum have not gone away. Any name drops of Thatcher and Blair (don't underestimate how controversial his name is internally either) right now is just plain stupid, no matter what the context.
 
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It would seem that the Tory party is now at war once again.

Following Rishi Sunak revealing his new Rwanda legislation, the immigration minister Robert Jenrick resigned due to his belief that the legislation did not go far enough (although some sources say that Jenrick’s resignation was caused by him not receiving the Home Secretary job following Suella Braverman’s resignation and feeling betrayed by Sunak as a result).

The right wing of the Tory party have expressed disapproval of the legislation, arguing that it doesn’t go far enough, as Jenrick has.

There is also talk that following the exit of Suella Braverman from cabinet, an “advent calendar of s**t” is also being drawn up by a group of Tory rebels nicknamed “the pasta plotters” to destabilise Sunak and install a new leader prior to the next general election. Kemi Badenoch is being touted by some as a potential new leader, while numerous others are strategising the return of Boris Johnson as leader prior to the election. Ideas range from Priti Patel, a Johnson loyalist, being installed as a caretaker PM until Johnson can be “parachuted into” No 10 via a safe seat to Johnson being made a Lord and governing from the Lords. There is also talk of a deal being struck between Johnson and Nigel Farage.

A number of Tory MPs “in double figures” are now believed to have submitted letters of no confidence in Sunak to Sir Graham Brady, head of the 1922 Committee. The number needs to reach 53 before a confidence vote in Sunak can be called, but many Tories now believe that Sunak could very well face a confidence vote prior to the next general election.

Overall, the mood in the Tory party is said to be bleak, with many making comparisons with when previous PMs like Theresa May and Liz Truss had lost the confidence of the party and were ousted.

As nuts as it sounds, I’m not sure I’d be overly surprised at this point if we received another new PM before the next election, or at very least a new Tory leader to fight the next election instead of Sunak…
 
Matt N said:
It would seem that the Tory party is now at war once again.

Following Rishi Sunak revealing his new Rwanda legislation, the immigration minister Robert Jenrick resigned due to his belief that the legislation did not go far enough (although some sources say that Jenrick’s resignation was caused by him not receiving the Home Secretary job following Suella Braverman’s resignation and feeling betrayed by Sunak as a result).

The right wing of the Tory party have expressed disapproval of the legislation, arguing that it doesn’t go far enough, as Jenrick has.

There is also talk that following the exit of Suella Braverman from cabinet, an “advent calendar of s**t” is also being drawn up by a group of Tory rebels nicknamed “the pasta plotters” to destabilise Sunak and install a new leader prior to the next general election. Kemi Badenoch is being touted by some as a potential new leader, while numerous others are strategising the return of Boris Johnson as leader prior to the election. Ideas range from Priti Patel, a Johnson loyalist, being installed as a caretaker PM until Johnson can be “parachuted into” No 10 via a safe seat to Johnson being made a Lord and governing from the Lords. There is also talk of a deal being struck between Johnson and Nigel Farage.

A number of Tory MPs “in double figures” are now believed to have submitted letters of no confidence in Sunak to Sir Graham Brady, head of the 1922 Committee. The number needs to reach 53 before a confidence vote in Sunak can be called, but many Tories now believe that Sunak could very well face a confidence vote prior to the next general election.

Overall, the mood in the Tory party is said to be bleak, with many making comparisons with when previous PMs like Theresa May and Liz Truss had lost the confidence of the party and were ousted.

As nuts as it sounds, I’m not sure I’d be overly surprised at this point if we received another new PM before the next election, or at very least a new Tory leader to fight the next election instead of Sunak…
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And whilst all this internal nonsense plays out within the Tory party, out in the real world there is a fecking country that needs running.

A country with a heath care system collapsing, schools falling down from neglect, people working full time who still can’t afford to eat, road and rail infrastructure crumbling, economy flatlining.

This government and the Tory party can just get in the bin. We need a bloody election, like yesterday.
 
Have you noticed how right wing politicians say we always need to leave something? It's always somebody else's fault that their policies don't work.

We need to leave the EU and it'll solve all our problems... then when it makes no difference, right, now we need to leave the ECHR, that'll definitely solve all our problems. Then it'd be, we need to leave the UN Refugee Convention and sack off all our other international obligations too
 
I won’t lie, I do wonder; is immigration really the big problem that the Tory party are making it out to be? I don’t deny that illegal migration has increased in recent years, but compared to other problems, I don’t personally feel like immigration is a big issue.

I know that I am only one voter, but personally, I’m far more concerned about the economy and our public services than I am about immigration. Polls also suggest that I may not be alone; I seem to remember reading a news article recently suggesting that only 10% of Brits viewed immigration as the biggest problem facing the country at the moment.

Does anyone else agree with me? Or am I alone in thinking that immigration, comparatively speaking, isn’t one of the bigger issues the UK is facing right now?
 
It isn't, but it scares the Tory heartlands in case they get a sudden rise in foreign takeout in town.

Simple way to remove illegal immigration is to create pathways that allows safe migration for those who need it. Stop the boats by reducing the need for people to risk their lives using them. But that doesn't win votes like putting the fear into people.

So many other problems going on, but no one cares if Schrodinger's Migrant is stealing benefits whilst simultaneously paying tax and additional costs.
 
Matt N said:
I won’t lie, I do wonder; is immigration really the big problem that the Tory party are making it out to be? I don’t deny that illegal migration has increased in recent years, but compared to other problems, I don’t personally feel like immigration is a big issue.

I know that I am only one voter, but personally, I’m far more concerned about the economy and our public services than I am about immigration. Polls also suggest that I may not be alone; I seem to remember reading a news article recently suggesting that only 10% of Brits viewed immigration as the biggest problem facing the country at the moment.

Does anyone else agree with me? Or am I alone in thinking that immigration, comparatively speaking, isn’t one of the bigger issues the UK is facing right now?
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All of the poling says the majority of the population agree with you. The problem sunak has is if you only poll 2019 Tory voters rather than the whole voting population migration then becomes the top issue.

So the country don’t worry that much about it so the policy is not a major vote winner but his party do so it makes him internally vulnerable if he doesn’t do something authoritarian about it. He is in a real catch 22 pickle but that’s mostly because he didn’t show any strength early on in his leadership and drag the party in the direction he needed it to go (like him or loath him that’s what Starmer has done to Labour).

It’s also given Labour the ability to fight on Tory topics, most people want some control of Immigration, Labour can throw a few sensible options that will probably work and they then look like the are working for the majority of voters without actually doing anything particularly controversial.
 
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Matt N said:
I won’t lie, I do wonder; is immigration really the big problem that the Tory party are making it out to be? I don’t deny that illegal migration has increased in recent years, but compared to other problems, I don’t personally feel like immigration is a big issue.

I know that I am only one voter, but personally, I’m far more concerned about the economy and our public services than I am about immigration. Polls also suggest that I may not be alone; I seem to remember reading a news article recently suggesting that only 10% of Brits viewed immigration as the biggest problem facing the country at the moment.

Does anyone else agree with me? Or am I alone in thinking that immigration, comparatively speaking, isn’t one of the bigger issues the UK is facing right now?
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The Rwanda deal is about sending 200 asylum seekers a year. Not 200,000 just 200. This is a solution to a problem that generally doesn't exist, but it's catchy and it plays nicely to the right wing headlines. It lets you punch down. Someone else is to blame. (Source for the number
BBC News - UK paid Rwanda an extra £100m for asylum deal
)

Migrants coming over here and scrounging on our benefits. It has a nice ring to it.

DWP's projected budget for benefit payments is £265.5 billion this year alone. Damn those benefit scroungers taking advantage of our generous system, but let's dig a little deeper and break it down.

First off, the Home Office actually administers spending on support for asylum seekers in the UK, and it comes out of the foreign aid budget. I don't have the breakdown on how much is spent on Asylum support (how much is given to asylum seekers to spend directly), but the overall budget for shelter and providing food, drink and support is £3.69 billion (for 2022 - https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9663/#:~:text=A growing amount of UK,this aid spending in 2022 ). A drop in the ocean.

Benefits though?! What about benefit scroungers?!

£59.8 billion is spent on Universal Credit and equivalent benefits (JSA etc).

£39.2 billion is spent on Disability and caring benefits.

£14.3 billion on housing benefit.

£13.3 billion on incapacity benefit.

£7.7 billion on cost of living payments.

£4.7 billion on other benefits.

But all of these benefits combined don't equal half of our overall benefit budget spend, so where does the rest go? Who are the scroungers? Who's getting all of that money? That hundreds of billions?

£134.8 billion is spent on pensioner benefits.

Why aren't they a target? They are by far the most politically active group and the most likely to vote.

I am not for one moment suggesting that the pensioner budget should be slashed, cut, or that pensioners shouldn't get their pensions. I'm using them to highlight how the real "problems" or big costs are never faced head on, or are spin for a political agenda and a cheap vote.

(Source for benefit breakdown: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cdp-2023-0154/#:~:text=The DWP's total proposed expenditure,£265.5 billion (95%). )
 
You're not alone Matt. Any sane person thinks the same as you. Immigration is the nuclear button that right wingers press when they have no other options left. It's easy to blame those 'other' people, who have no voice than it is to have a sensible debate about the real underlying causes.

Yeah, there is an immigration problem. The UK border force has had it's budget cut back significantly since 2010. The government failed to see any of this coming. We've stuck 2 fingers up to our European partners over a number of years. We've failed to provide safe asylum routs. We've imported skilled labour because we've failed to invest in skills here. We've brutally cut back public sector pay. We've warehoused disabled people in hospitals and damp flats because we don't have a robust social care system. We've broken our health service leaving talented people destitute awaiting the treatment they need. We've failed to pay people properly, allowing employers to just simply import and exploit foreign labour instead. We've broken the economy, housing, increased taxes and failed to invest in energy or transport, thus forcing both parents into full-time work whilst trying to shove their children into expensive childcare that's staffed by skilled people earning minimum wages just ot make ends meet. We've happily sought the services of immigrants to do all the stuff we don't want to do, on crap wages, taken tax off of them, but not invested in infrastructure with that money and instead just had to audacity to shout "country's full" at them.

There's only one way this leads. Closet racists get really angry when you mention 1930's Germany. So why then is Trump, who man who insighted an attempted insurrection to hold on to power against the democratic will of the people, now threatening to crack down on the media and his political enemies should he get back in to power? Why has a man been elected in the Netherlands who wants to demolish mosques? Why was Nigel Farage allowed to say that he is "intimidated" by someone speaking a foreign language on a train? Why do we have a government that openly debating breaking international law and treaties that have existed since the second world war in the wake of some of the worst racist human atrocities in history? Why did someone have the confidence the other day to phone a radio station and claim that Rishi Sunak was "not really British", presumably because his skin is a little on the brown side for his liking?

This all sounds an awful lot like blaming the easiest targets to me. I'm yet to hear a single rational argument from a supporter of the completely irrational Rwanda policy, or someone who claims to be "concerned about the numbers" that stands up to the slightest bit of scrutiny that doesn't end in an argument that is down right racist. The most concerning problem is, most of this emanates from the British government themselves.
 
Matt.GC said:
This all sounds an awful lot like blaming the easiest targets to me. I'm yet to hear a single rational argument from a supporter of the completely irrational Rwanda policy, or someone who claims to be "concerned about the numbers" that stands up to the slightest bit of scrutiny that doesn't end in an argument that is down right racist. The most concerning problem is, most of this emanates from the British government themselves.
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One thing that really worried me was that Tweet from the Number 10 account a few days ago which started with "We are a reasonable country". The language used seemed eerily reminiscent of that used by people I can only really describe as right-wing nutjobs.
 
Matt N said:
I won’t lie, I do wonder; is immigration really the big problem that the Tory party are making it out to be?
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It isn't, but it's also not the non-problem that the a noisy minority at the other extreme of the conversation will have you believe.

There are many reasons that make controlling migration important, and it's all very well offering legitimate routes of application (and to be clear, they should be offered), but as soon as those applications aren't successful illegal attempts will always continue and there hadms to be a way to prevent amd enforce these.
 
pluk said:
It isn't, but it's also not the non-problem that the a noisy minority at the other extreme of the conversation will have you believe.

There are many reasons that make controlling migration important, and it's all very well offering legitimate routes of application (and to be clear, they should be offered), but as soon as those applications aren't successful illegal attempts will always continue and there hadms to be a way to prevent amd enforce these.
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There used to be, we sent them back to France as per the Dublin agreement. I would do a big Brexit point here and that’s definitely the cause, but on this one I am certain we could have stayed in the Dublin agreement if our government where not so pathologically opposed to any agreement with the EU.

Fact is asylum claims in the last 12months where 40,000 out of 750,000 net migration so the bigger issue is always going to be vacancies rather than small boats.
 
Brexit was an extraordinary achievement in that we regained the ability to more simply control migration levels, but the Conservative Party actually opened the floodgates in the name of salary erosion and VAT receipts.

Immigration is a sufficiently-large issue as significant numbers will vote based on it. Still not a large number, but enough Tory abstainers or switchers to make it a worthwhile populist battleground.

Now that apparent war has been declared on the unskilled jobs market by increasing the migration salary threshold, more Tory business support should fall away, expediting their death spiral.

As ironically the Liberal Democrats said, Brexit is making Britain "less white".
 
Tom said:
Brexit was an extraordinary achievement in that we regained the ability to more simply control migration levels, but the Conservative Party actually opened the floodgates in the name of salary erosion and VAT receipts.

Immigration is a sufficiently-large issue as significant numbers will vote based on it. Still not a large number, but enough Tory abstainers or switchers to make it a worthwhile populist battleground.

Now that apparent war has been declared on the unskilled jobs market by increasing the migration salary threshold, more Tory business support should fall away, expediting their death spiral.

As ironically the Liberal Democrats said, Brexit is making Britain "less white".
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Brexit does not allow you to control migration levels. What control migration is supply and demand. In the EU the flexibility of moving around the continent meant people were more likely to come for short periods of time to fill gaps in the labour market (and they had to be paid the same as UK workers) and in most cases would then return to their home country. Now we are having migrants coming on Visa’s with further applications for indefinite leave to remain after 5 years.

And on top of that as part of the EU we could return illegal migrants to France, that went when we left.

There is literally no achievement in Brexit, it has provided not one single benefit.
 
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