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UK politics general discussion

BigT said:
Whereas Labour have a magic money tree.
Don’t get me wrong some of the ideas that Starmer has come out with this week I have been banging on about for years but I’ll tell you this for nothing, the pittance that the 45% tax band brings in won’t even touch the surface.
None of the politicians have a clue, they really don’t.
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Oh, the Magic Money Tree again.

Labour would not lower Corporation Tax and would have had a Windfall tax. Just some things to start,...

I think it's time to stop saying that "none of them" have a clue. Only ONE party has been in power these past 12 years presiding over all the collapses we've seen.

And it is not Labour.
 
BigT said:
Whereas Labour have a magic money tree.
Don’t get me wrong some of the ideas that Starmer has come out with this week I have been banging on about for years but I’ll tell you this for nothing, the pittance that the 45% tax band brings in won’t even touch the surface.
None of the politicians have a clue, they really don’t.
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At no point have Labour said returning the 45% tax is their only tax change. They have simply said they will keep the 19% tax and return the 45% tax.

You just used reductive reasoning to come to that assumption.
 
BigT said:
Whereas Labour have a magic money tree.
Don’t get me wrong some of the ideas that Starmer has come out with this week I have been banging on about for years but I’ll tell you this for nothing, the pittance that the 45% tax band brings in won’t even touch the surface.
None of the politicians have a clue, they really don’t.
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I think Starmer’s plans are to be funded in other ways, such as through additional taxes upon wealth (Starmer heavily hinted towards this when interviewed earlier) and through stopping tax breaks for private schools.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if he imposed a windfall tax, seeing as he’s been a very keen advocate of one.
 
Tbh, thus far Liz truss and her team have done more damage than good by trying to help, without considering the consequences. Can we have boris back please ?
 
BarryZola said:
The government should have subjected the likes of Shell and BP to a windfall tax this autumn, then they wouldn't have so badly needed a magic money tree (more borrowing). There's just no reason that as people at the top of government you wouldn't have done it, unless you're in bed with them and there's something in it for you.
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They are subject to a windfall tax this year that’s the funny thing, nobody is talking about the fact that the windfall tax was put in place by the Johnson administration.

Alsty said:
Did you forget the part where the Conservatives are borrowing over £100bn for years to come to fund their unsustainable tax cuts?
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No but under Labour it would be £150bn.

I’m past caring anymore to be honest, in my five decades alive I think I can count honest politicians on one hand in total,
 
It is a pity that the country is in such dire straits - the worst of my adult lifetime certainly - yet you're still just sort of shrugging your shoulders mixed in with criticism of the opposition.

Surely, anything, anyhow, has to be better than the current government.

No? What would you prefer to happen? Status Quo? Another Tory 5 year term?

Genuinely interested.
 
BigT said:
They are subject to a windfall tax this year that’s the funny thing, nobody is talking about the fact that the windfall tax was put in place by the Johnson administration.



No but under Labour it would be £150bn.

I’m past caring anymore to be honest, in my five decades alive I think I can count honest politicians on one hand in total,
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It’s easy to be “past caring” when you have the option of selling a boat if you get desperate for food
 
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I have full faith that Labour would pursue other forms of taxation in order to fund their spending plans; Starmer has already talked about potentially increasing taxes on wealth to fund these policies, and I’m sure that other forms of taxation could be found that wouldn’t require Labour to borrow.

To be honest, I was incredibly inspired by Starmer’s speech and many of his announcements; Labour are certainly getting my vote in 2024!
 
I apologise for sounding salty on political subjects recently but I'm extremely frustrated by - not what's only been posted here, but what's happened in the public discourse.

In 2010, Gordon Brown was bullied out of office in the most grotesque manner by the media after loosing the general election and failing to secure a coalition or supply and demand agreement. He had many faults, but compared to what we've seen since I am really struggling to understand why he was painted as the boogeyman whilst governments we've seen since then have been given "the benefit of the doubt".

I used to be a Labour party member. I voted against Ed Milliband because I knew he would be a bad leader. I resigned over Corbyn and all the internal bullying that happened (including what happened to me). I think Starmer is boring and Blair is a warmonger who wasted his massive majorities.

Even on these pages I read loads of "to be fair on them/him/her", or "to give them/him/her credit" stuff and a plethora of other excuses. I read and hear relatively irrelevant stuff about the pros and cons about tax policy etc as if we were living in normal times. Be it Ukraine, Brexit, Covid or whatever, the excuses keep on coming.

I'm not old, but neither am I young. I'm a similar age as many of the politicians making these decisions. But you don't have to listen to me, Kier Starmer, the IMF, economists, the media or even like minded posters on this forum about the situation. Listen to ex TORY chancellors such as Ken Clark and George Osbourne, both of which have politely spoken out against what is happening right now.

How many excuses can be made for poor governance? The current PM and her rivals openly debated for months over how bad things are - how bad their 12 years in government has been. The winner of that contest, Truss, is now being openly criticised by MP's that supported her just weeks into the job. Internally, red wall Tory MP's know they're toast. Even Ken Clark himself today warned about the effect all this has on "the poor"!

Even if you overlook all of this, you have the cold hard non political facts. This government promised to reduce the budget deficit, which is currently now growing larger. National debt is now higher than it was in 2010. This government held a referendum on a major constitutional change but completely failed to plan/prepare for one of the possible outcomes. Wage rises are far below inflation. The NHS is churning out some of the worst performance statistics it ever has in its entire history. Inflation is running at the highest rate it has in most of our lifetimes. The Bank of England is purchasing government debt because the markets are worried about the UK's abilities to service its debt to avoid a collapse in pensions. The pound declined to the point where it is nearly worth the same as the dollar. Many mortgage companies are not lending due to uncertainty. Mortgage holders on middle incomes are facing loosing their homes due to a rapid increase in interest rates. We've had a prime minister from this government that has broken the law multiple times, including laws he himself signed off.

So I'm as intrigued to hear your thoughts as @AstroDan is. Please, please, PLEASE tell me why we should give them the "benefit of the doubt". Please tell me why we should "be fair on them". Please tell me why so many people are still blaming external entities for poor governance. Please tell me why anyone could defend this current administration? Please tell why Labour, a Lib Dem/Labour coalition or even anything else being seriously offered is any worse than what we've got?

I'm seriously interested. Because I don't understand it. Don't just post nonsense about Ukraine, Covid etc, that's the same for all other western countries. Tell me what it will take for our government to be challenged? How much worse do things have to get?
 
BigT said:
They are subject to a windfall tax this year that’s the funny thing, nobody is talking about the fact that the windfall tax was put in place by the Johnson administration.
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Yes, and I was suggesting that they needed to announce another one for the next period instead of the borrowing that was announced instead. Just to be clear.
 
Oh my what a total mess. Everyone thought Boris was bad, Truss is worse. In all honesty I don’t think any political party knows what they are doing and are just throwing ideas to the wind.

Let’s have a general election now and give Labour a go. I don’t think it can get any worse at the moment.
 
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Absolute disaster. And you can bet there's a number of MPs and their mates who are making financial joy our of this, similarly to how Brexit was to the likes of Rees-Mogg.

And yet they defend the indefensible again. Is it any wonder many are sick of it? Being gaslit about so much over the last few years whilst prices soar, wages stagnate and many look at this winter in fear of affordability.

If there was any justice anyone involved in the cabinet since Boris' win would be jailed, then paraded through the country so the populace can jeer them for the mess they've made for their own benefit.

Even an inanimate carbon rod couldn't be THIS bad.
 
Dave said:
Ohh give over, falling for the whole “they are all as bad as each other” line just plays into the hands of people who don’t want any sort of democracy. Make the electorate lazy and disinterested is such a classic right wing trope.
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For me this is one of the unfortunate things of where we are in the landscape.

If someone is apolotical they are immediately cast as pushing "right wing trope". I am surprised nobody has come to the realisation that one of the lefts biggest recruitment problems is that they bully and attack anyone who dares not to have fully drunk the cool aid. What is the response to that going to be? Fight or flight right?

Ultimately we are sat here arguing the toss over whether 1.8% of the population pay 40 or 45% on earnings over 120k. Nothing radical happens either way.

Let me be very real - if there was a GE tomorrow I would vote Labour. The grass roots do their very best to push people away from doing so though!

Smoke and mirrors, divide and conquer! Animal farm.
 
NickB said:
Ultimately we are sat here arguing the toss over whether 1.8% of the population pay 40 or 45% on earnings over 120k. Nothing radical happens either way.
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Well, Truss now seems to be saying "we'll cut your public services so the rich can get their tax cut"
 
Where are the monarchy when we need them? How can they stand by and watch this happen to the public that they serve so well? They're working so hard for us, why are they letting this happen? ;)
 
Alsty said:
Well, Truss now seems to be saying "we'll cut your public services so the rich can get their tax cut"
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Yeah no 100% my wife is a social worker. I hear daily from the horses mouth how things are on the ground already never mind after this BS. We need good not very bad Vs very very bad which is where we are currently, thats all I was getting at. It's not radically different. At least Corbyn was for real change. He soon got pushed out 😉
 
If you guys don’t me asking this; 3 years on, what was it the country collectively hated so much about Corbyn?

It’s been 3 years since his big defeat and I’m still a little stumped.

This could just be the young left winger in me talking, but I was very inspired by his manifesto and really liked many of his policies. For instance, the press and most of the country seemingly hated the idea of nationalising broadband (I pick that example because that is one that the press particularly honed in on), but I thought it was a terrific idea; in this day and age, broadband is arguably a commodity with how everything is moving online, so why shouldn’t everyone get equal access to it?

And Starmer’s policies don’t sound that dissimilar in many ways; he’s keen on renationalising many public services in a similar way to what Corbyn was, and he had other pretty left wing policies such as a strong commitment to green energy.

What was it that was so universally despised about Corbyn? I’ll admit I’m a little confused… everyone always paints him as the nadir of British politics and someone who would have been a true nightmare in charge, but I always liked him. I guess that’s my unpopular opinion of the day…
 
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